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mod 80, i don’t think most of the posters here chalila have anything against talmidei chachomim, I think it’s that many consider themselves deserving of the kovod reserved for talmidei chachomim because they are learning.
“I know a lot of people living in Lakewood. Not a single one demanded a down payment from the parents. Mod 80, you hit the nail on the head.”
“i will repeat what others have said – i too know many people in lakewood who not only didn’t demand a down payment, but they didn’t demand any money from their parents and/or in-laws.”
I also know a lot of people in Lakewood, as a matter of fact I live here. There are plenty of people who get money from others- whether they demanded it or not, I don’t know. Some actually have their whole house paid for, not just the downpayment. Sometimes on top of this they have people buy them new cars. I remember hearing about one young couple that they were receiving from their parents/in-laws $50 grand a year, because how could they live on less?
seeallsides -“i am the working person supporting quite a large family, and i see that they appreciate every penny given them”
Can I join your payroll? I guarantee I’ll appreciate every dime (who wants pennies) you give me!
Some very good points here are made.
The situation goes both ways. Some couples are doing it on their own and yet the “theys” are convinced that the parents are helping them.
And yes there are those who help and put their children first and themselves last. But what’s chutzpah is when the young ones who do get a home speak of it as if they bought the house and easily comment about what others are buying or building when it’s the parents(usually one side) funding the project. A little more Hakoras Hatov due to devoted parents would be nice once in a while. And the machatonim too could say Thank You!
As they say in Yiddish many youngsters feel that “Es Kumpt Zei”, it’s due to them.
Mod 80, I completely disagree. I do not think that anyone who questions the actions of any kollel family is automatically doing so because he/she hates talmidei chachomim. The bottom line is that anyone sitting in learning in kollel who feels that they need a house because everyone has one, SHOULD NOT BE SITTING IN KOLLEL!!! If they were talmidei chachomim, would they be harassing their parents, or expecting a house?!?!? I doubt it.
edited
Although this has been mentioned, I feel the need to say it again. There are THOUSANDS of young Kollel couples in Lakewood. I only know a few of them, so I cannot speak for everyone when I say that no one who I know “demanded” anything from their parents. Some are supported, some are not and really on the wife’s income, etc. Those that get support are very appreciative of their parents, and do not “demand” more and more. If a parent wishes to support a child learning, Kal Hakovod! If not and the child still chooses to learn in Kollel, they make it work a different way. (For the record – I never lived in Lakewood, but my husband did learn in Kollel, we were not “supported” nor did we get any government assistance. I worked at a decent paying job, and we lived simply. My parents did pay for my graduate school, although I know others in similar situations who even did that on their own via loans)
Unfortunately I’m sure the situation described here exists, as when you have such large numbers you get people with good middos and people with bad middos. If you took a group of thousands of working couples, some would have good middos and some would have bad middos, too. Kinah, taavah, gaavah are not unique to the Kollel community! I don’t disagree that this is wrong. I am objecting to the fact that everytime this discussion gets underway there is an underlying tone of many of the posters that “many” if not “all” of those sitting and learning are schnorrers with bad middos! How can anyone feel comfortable saying such motzei shem ra on huge numbers of individuals who are truly moser nefesh to keep the world standing! If you want to discuss the minority who do meet this description, please be careful as to how you say it.
health: i know that many people do get help, but my point was that there still are people in this world that don’t – their wives work, and when it gets too hard, they may move to out-of-town kollel community where they can get paid for their learning, and eventually do kiruv, be a rebbe, rav, etc. parents may help out a little for brisses, simchas, medical issues, etc.
this may or may not be the norm, but it definitely exists.
There are plenty of people who get money from others- whether they demanded it or not, I don’t know.
I would assume, based on my experience, that most, if not all did not demand it. And if they were given it willingly, would you have such an issue with it?
DY,
I have no issue with the parents giving willingly, provided the parents are taking care of their own responsibilities (so they shouldn’t be asking for a scholarship for other kids in Yeshiva to pay for their children sitting and learning.
Mod-80,
This isn’t about disparaging talmidei chachomim, because no true talmid chachom would EVER demand a down payment. In fact, most talmidei chachomim would probably reject the offer of a large sum of money for a down payment and ask for the money instead so they could extend their time learning! [OK, slightly a true scotsman argument LOL]
But I think its about establishing a system of dependancy. So you help your kids in Kollel for a few years. They get used to taking. Then they ask for a bit more (help with some tuition) or with a down payment. This generation is becoming very dependant on the (ever decreasing) wealth of the previous generations.
So no one here knows of anyone that this has happened to.
Must be Urban Legend. Maybe Snopes has something on it?
This generation is becoming very dependant on the (ever decreasing) wealth of the previous generations.
Which has nothing to do with Kollel, and everything to do with Tuition, simcha costs, and the need to keep up with the Cohens’. Even with median jobs, a frum family has no possibility of supporting themselves.
gavra_at_work:
“Which has nothing to do with Kollel, and everything to do with Tuition, simcha costs, and the need to keep up with the Cohens’.”
Actually, you have brought up one point. Tuition prices are higher due to kollel, and others, who are unable to afford tuition. Therefore, others who can afford it, are footing the bill for the others who can’t.
But your other points are all valid.
J&W22:
Whether Kollel drives up tuition prices depends on the concentration of Kollel-type (including Klei Kodesh on discount) in the school you send to. Most OOT schools have big issues with this, to the point where it has already been posted here that the schools are unable to offer discounts to working individuals, due to the large discounts for Klei Kodesh, including those working in the schools (and sister schools).
However, somewhere like Teaneck, where there are fewer Kollel-type, Kollel-type is not the driving force behind large tuitions. There the schools need to “keep up” making the school similar to a prep school, but accepts everyone, driving up costs for those that pay.
A third type is the Lakewood type school, where there is a minimum tuition (since everyone is in Klei Kodesh). There is then an incentive to hold down costs (lakewood is known for smaller tuitions), but it may be to the detriment of the quality of education.
OOT schools have a problem with too many kollel types. How is that?
PBA:
First, I wouldn’t call Kollel a “problem”. Mr. 80 yelled at us already in this thread.
If the ratio of non paying to paying is too high, then the school will run out of money. In general, Kollel type are defined as non paying from the get-go, even if they can pay more (due to professional courtesy & the sort, let alone lack of funds). In a small school/single school area (which is the norm for OOT), a large proportion of the students will be from such families (which tend to have larger family sizes), especially if there is a SEED or Lakewood Kollel, or a G’vir who is paying for the Kollel for his town.
In other towns (in town or larger cities), the schools are larger and the ratio is lower. Also, the “kollel type” tend to concentrate in the “frumest” schools (since there are multiple schools), so the other schools don’t have to deal with their non payment.
health – seeallsides -“i am the working person supporting quite a large family, and i see that they appreciate every penny given them”
would love to! unfortunately long list with that request 🙂
Well, that is odd. I thought out of town usually had fewer people in kollel, because the don’t have major kollels.
PBA:
It is a matter of percentages, not absolute values. Even if the kollel is smaller, the ratio of kollel type to “working – non klei kodesh” type is higher.
PBA, regarding OOT schools and kollel families/klei kodesh, what GAW describes fits my own experience as well. Out family lived in an OOT community in the central US which has a kollel. We sent our children to the newer day school. About two-thirds of the students had parents who were klei kodesh (kollel or rabbeim in other schools) and/or school staff members, so they paid minimal or no tuition. The kollel was supported by a gvir in town, and as GAW noted, these klei kodesh families tend to be large k”ah.
I worked to support my husband in grad school, so my children were part of the “wealthy” third of the student body (at least until I lost my job).
In this town, a significant number of non-klei kodesh families were indeed sufficiently well-off to easily pay full tuition. This tended to create an impression that all non-klei kodesh families in the student body were wealthy.
First of all, the OP mentioned nothing about kollel (as has been pointed out). I’m not sure what it’s doing in this conversation at all.
Secondly, I flatly do not believe the claim that “This is widespread”. I do not believe that it is “widespread” for children to demand down payments on their homes from the parents. Nor do I believe that it is common that “When you speak to the married children they whine, when you dont speak to them, they say you never call because you dont care”. I simply don’t believe this is the case.
DY -“if not all did not demand it.”
How could you post such a lie when the OP said his/her kids did?
Second of all- maybe a lot don’t demand it after they are married, but a lot demand XY&Z before they get married; sometimes this includes a house amongst the Nadin!
Health,
That was completely unfair for you to quote half of my sentence and then blast me for the result.
Second of all- maybe a lot don’t demand it after they are married, but a lot demand XY&Z before they get married; sometimes this includes a house amongst the Nadin!
In which case, the parents could have refused then and turned down the shidduch. If they chose to go ahead with it, they shouldn’t complain now. (And I don’t think this is common either.)
Ofcourse: I’m sorry that your kids whine when you speak to them and complain when you don’t speak to them. I’m also sorry that your kids demanded a down-payment.
Nevertheless, your unfortunate experiences are far far from the norm.
DY – “In which case, the parents could have refused then and turned down the shidduch. If they chose to go ahead with it, they shouldn’t complain now. (And I don’t think this is common either.)”
I definitely agree! Noone should be forced to give what they don’t want to. Why do I say forced? Because some people aren’t like me and feel if they don’t give into everything that’s demanded, their child won’t get married. They even resort to lying or wishful thinking (that one day they will be able to afford it) to give into the other side’s DEMANDS!
I wouldn’t be surprised if some parents meet their children’s demands out of fear they would not be allowed to see the grandchildren. While this could happen in any family, the kollel system institutionalizes dependency. Dependency can lead to unexpected consequences, many not good.
I have a married child living in Lakewood who didn’t want to buy a house because she couldn’t afford the down payment. They didn’t ask me for anything. I encouraged them to buy a modest house and withdrew hard earned money from my retirement account to help them with the down payment.
Seeing them in their house which I helped purchase gives me unbounded nachas. It is one of the most satisfying things I have done in my life. May hashem help me to do the same for my other chidren.
“Time to fight that yetzer hara of yours and absorb a true Torah Daas. “
Rambam and Rav Hirsch had a yetzer hara and lacked a true Torah Daas?
the thought of a married ‘child’ DEMANDING anything is appalling to me!
my daughter, a kollel wife, asks me what SHE can do for me!! she’s mamash a tzaddekes, B’H, bli a’h. (ex.- whenever she’s in the supermarket, she calls to ask what I need). I am blessed.
whatever we have done for them is done from our hearts & is always greatly appreciated.
Ofcourse: Again, the chutzpa of your children demanding money and complaining are in no way shape or form indicative of Lakewood folks, as in in fact the polar opposite of the Kollel families.
Joe – Your statement should read -as in fact the polar opposite of “some” Kollel families.
No, the discussion of this thread is the in fact the polar opposite of any and all Kollel ideals and teachings. The very very few exceptions notwithstanding.
OK, I think we all agree that married kids don’t have the right (and it is not proper for them) to demand payment/support from their parents/in-laws, correct?
The Wolf
That was never in doubt, Wolf, by anyone. The issue was that some attempted to malign some of the holiest members of our society with a lie based on a virtually inconsequential scattering of minority of minorities. And to top it off this issue is far less frequent amongst Lakewood and Kollel people, who are more frequently than elsewhere properly trained in derech eretz and kibud av v’eim than outside society, yet the title of this thread laid this lie on their feet.
Joe – “No, the discussion of this thread is the in fact the polar opposite of any and all Kollel ideals and teachings. The very very few exceptions notwithstanding.”
I agree that this attitude is against Kollel ideals and teachings. I think that this was the point of the OP -that this is somewhat prevalent, even though they shouldn’t be like that. He/she brought stories not just from her/him self, but from their friends also. Also, I know about the demanding before the marriage even takes place. So to make it out that it is a very, very small percentage- simply isn’t honest!
Simple. Don’t put down the down payment if you can’t afford it.”
Don’t do it, even if you CAN afford it. Since when do whiney kids get to make such unreasonable demands of their parents??? Quelle chutzpah!!!!
A parent does what he or she can do OUT OF LOVE, not out of the child’s feelings of entitlement. We have sadly and deplorably raised a generation of truly thoughtless and selfish brats who think they have a right to demand that their parents continue to raise them as if they were still helpless children. And if the parent DOES say no, their noses get out of joint.
Conversely, many parents deliberately encourage their kids in this selfish behavior, because they are better able to retain control over them when they hold the purse strings. That is incredibly bad behavior on the part of the parents, not only their children.
OOmis – The problem, I think is, that a lot of parents don’t even realize that they brought up a bunch of spoiled kids!
“OK, I think we all agree that married kids don’t have the right (and it is not proper for them) to demand payment/support from their parents/in-laws, correct?”
I disagree. A nadin has been important part of halachah for a long time. As part of a nadin you get to demand things from yur kallahs parents. Are you saying that the nadin isnt Torah?
Well it gets to a point when: I have a friend who just got married she has a bunch of siblings (she first to get married)her mother is a house wife, stays at home. Her father works. . . . Her mother just went to work so she can pay part of her daughters rent each month.
I think its a bit absurd for someon to have to go and work to pay there daughters rent.
I actually agree with MosheRose here. If the boy is upfront and is only willing to get married if the in-laws provide a house, that is their business. The problem is if they want anything after the fact (which is NOT Nadin, by definition).
I think its a bit absurd for someon to have to go and work to pay there daughters rent.
Many parents are happy to suppot their children learning. It really depends on the attitude of the parents. I know many on both sides; some feel it is a zechus, and some feel it is a tremendous burden that they are forced into by the society.
GAW
“If the boy is upfront and is only willing to get married if the in-laws provide a house, that is their business.”
You’re right, it’s nobodys business. But, please tell me you see the insanity in demands like these!
My God, I wouldn’t even look at a guy who makes ANY financial demands of me, and ESPECIALLY not of my parents.
Will somebody be so kind and explain to me where $$$$ comes into the shidduch picture? You wanna marry the girl, or not? How does a house or no house change anything about her?
mytake,
Historically, marriages were more likely to be business transactions. Its actually the older way to get married (with dowries).
Will somebody be so kind and explain to me where $$$$ comes into the shidduch picture? You wanna marry the girl, or not? How does a house or no house change anything about her?
The Roshei Yeshiva decided. It is a simple formula:
1: In order to become a Gadol, you need to learn without outside worries
2: In order to learn without worries, you need to be fully supported (preferably money in the bank, ready to be transfered and agreed upon even before the shidduch is even looked at. What happens if C”V the FIL loses his money? It is grounds for a divorce!).
3: The full support should be done by the father in law, as payment for the Zechus that his daughter gets to marry the budding Talmid Chacham.
4: (And most critical) Everyone is a Gadol Hador (Otherwise, they would have no right taking money for learning), or is at least a potential Gadol Hador, or massive Talmid Chacham.
Therefore, everyone who wants to learn deserves full support. Go to the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva, that is what they will tell you (and if Joseph was here, he would say the same).
Simple logic will suffice.
gavra_at_work, I also believe its an attitude,many parents see it as a zechus to supprot children in learning for a few years especially if the fathers are too busy to learn a lot themselves.
Most young couples will admit that the beg years when the husband was learning was the foudation of their home and their marriage.
gavra_at_work, I also believe its an attitude,many parents see it as a zechus to supprot children in learning for a few years
(Only) A few years! What are you, MO?!
The Yeshiva World standard is five to ten, with partial support (parole?) thereafter. Life support (sentence?) is recommended if you want your grandchildren to get into yeshiva day school, let alone be stuck in the various crisises (such as Shidduch, OTD & Cheeses).
Still Adar, or I would cry. Because its mostly the truth.
“If the boy is upfront and is only willing to get married if the in-laws provide a house, that is their business.”
True; but here in America we have a problem called “keeping up with the Joneses”. I personally don’t have this problem, but a lot of people do. These people are psychologically forced to say and commit to things that is way beyond their means. Maybe they are scared their kid won’t get married if they don’t. This definitely was one of the reasons why Gedolim put out Takonos about Chasunah spending.
So IMO, if a bachur before the chasuna has demands that they Know the in-laws can’t afford to do, but they do it anyway because they can get away with it -this is Very Not Ehrlich and such a person doesn’t deserve to be supported to sit and learn!
These people are psychologically forced to say and commit to things that is way beyond their means.
COW. (Cash on Wedding). No Cashei, No Harei Atei.
My parents can barely afford to pay for my wedding, and my job cannot cover the rent, food, and utilities of the average newlywed in my neighborhood. I cannot rely on my parents for financial support after my wedding (they’re barely managing to make ends meet as it is).
Forget about a year long honeymoon in Israel. Forget about a down payment for a house.
At least I know that the guy who marries me is doing so for me. Not my money. Not my parents.
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