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Im laughing out loud!
re: Is it Getting too expensive????
NO ONE mentioned the married kids who after multiple years of parents paying out a thousand plus a month, married Lakewood kids want a down payment now!!! They say they’re the only ones who dont have a house(when they have a few kids)!!!
What have we done wrong and how do we fix it QUICK??? When you speak to the married children they whine, when you dont speak to them, they say you never call because you dont care.
The married kids’ income wouldnt be enough to get a mortgage, so parents buy the houses on their names, and parents have to pay the taxes, etc. Prices in Lakewood arent low these days either, and taxes are high. And no, 99% of the kids have their kids settled in schools and will NOT move to another cheaper community.
In a bad economy, some parents and grandparents are actually taking out second mortgages, or selling houses, or looking for additional ways to make money to satisfy demands of married kids. They cant take the whining “Im the only one in Lakewood….”
What have we done wrong? (I think we didnt teach the importance of being self-sufficient and we, as parents, and the schools overdid the Bitachon thing). I know loads of Lakewood married kids who have terrible relationships with their parents, because whatever they’ve given in the past, they havent given enough and kids demand more.
What do we do now? This is widespread.
“What do we do now? This is widespread. “
Let the kids be self sufficient.
We paid for our wedding out of our own pockets. When we bought a house, my wife’s mother helped us out some, but most of the down payment and the entirety of the mortgage payments are from us. If they can’t afford Lakewood, there are plenty of less expensive frum communities in rust belt cities that would love to have a new family move in. The kids will handle it ok.
Try role reversal. Move to Lakewood and have the kids support you. I have news for you. I did not support my kids and when my third married child bought his house and my friend called to give me mazal tov, I told her what is the mazal tov for? I have 3 kids with mortgages I am never going to sleep again!!!!!!!!!!!! And don’t think we didn’t go through the wringer 2 years ago when the economy crashed. Two of my kids were at risk of losing their homes. Its no joke. B”H they are back on their feet again, but for a long time we were very, very scared.
There is nothing you can do but let them suffer through it. You can’t spread yourselves so thin that you will go into debt or put yourselves into an early grave. If they can’t afford it they can’t have it. Let them learn to deal with it and stop looking at what others have. “Live the Torah life and don’t be mekaneh other people. If Hashem wanted you to have what they have he would have made you them and them you.” Tell them to get chizuk from the Rosh Yeshiva or be mispallel for what they want.
What do we do now?
Simple. Don’t put down the down payment if you can’t afford it.
If your kid can’t understand that, then you’re dealing with a much bigger problem than financial difficulty.
edited
NO ONE mentioned the married kids who after multiple years of parents paying out a thousand plus a month, married Lakewood kids want a down payment now!!!
and
What do we do now?
The answer is fairly simple: just say no.
Look, my in-laws helped us out when we got married. But Eeees and I would NEVER dream of asking (much less *demanding*) anything from them. We’re extremely grateful for all they have done for us, but it was all done at their initiative.
God willing, I’d like to be able to help my kids the same way. I hope I’m raising my kids the right way to understand that they don’t “have it coming to them” and that they have no right to “demand” anything. And, moreover, I hope I’m teaching them well enough that if their fiances “demand” anything of me, that they will see that for the character flaw that it is and seriously reconsider marrying that person.
The Wolf
I don’t think it’s a self sufficiant issue as much as it’s a “keeping up with the Jones” issue. If we need what others have, how can we ever be satisfied?
I do think there are pleanty of Lakewooders who are mistapek bemuat, and make due with very little.
Years ago, somone wanted to give Rav Chaim Kaniyevsky an apartment, so he and his little kids may move out of his two bedroom apartment. He refuesd to accept. So the good-hearted Yid went to RCK’s mother to have her convince him. She refused. Her reasoning: RCK living in a small apt is mechazek all those who can’t afford bigger.. How can she take that from them?
Why are you even slightly surprised?
Creating a system of self dependency snowballs…
Seems that everyone is basically in agreement. Don’t do it if you can’t and problem solved.
edited
TBT – “I do think there are pleanty of Lakewooders who are mistapek bemuat, and make due with very little.”
Some, not plenty. You should see the house I live in compared to almost everyone else!
Tell them the only way you can afford it is if you move in with them. Then again, that may backfire when they think you’ll babysit for free.
Yeah, the answer here is “no”.
Edited to add: What happened to the idealism of sacrificing to live the Kollel lifestyle? For those in Lakewood to learn, where do they get the idea that all this gashmiyus comes with it?
The kids feel they have a right to decide how much we neeed left.
Write them out, or pretend you have lost it all. If some children only feel you are there to take advantage of, they really want nothing to do with you, only your money.
Hopefully you have some children that are sane?
Ofcourse, again I say take it up with the Rosh Yeshiva especially if it is ruining the sholom bayis of the mishpacha.
OC: Well, let theirBitachon pay for their house.
Ofcourse,
You are being placed in a really tough situation. I am sorry for you and your friends.
Likely with the economy, your savings/portfolio has dipped so its even harder for you to part with money.
Its time to cut the cord though. Obviously, your generous nature has gotten to the point of being abused. Now is the time for tough love.
Obviously, I am not part of the norm, although I always thought I was…..
I don’t know who demands down payments from their parents and the like, but if this is true, I have to say I think it is bad chinuch on the parents’ part…
I am young married and in Lakewood, and not living off my parents at all. Neither are many of the people I know. When our (collective) parents help us, it’s because they want to; not because we demand it. And although I can’t vouch for others’ relationships with their parents, I’d say that the majority of the people I know have good ones and are living in Kollel because they understand what it means to live in Kollel.
Granted, the standard of living here is a bit over-the-top. In fact, it bothers me very much. But before you blast Lakewood as a whole, know that there are many people here who make do with very little and appreciate living a Kollel lifestyle.
Ofcourse
I don’t get it. It’s your money, right? So you decide if you want to spend it on the DP or retirement. Your money, your decision, I don’t see where the kids come in.
I’m just curious about where they pick up this self-centered attitude.
“The kids want us to have the same Bitachon that the schools told them to have in married life”
You’re sure it’s Bitachon in Hashem? It sounds a little like its Bitachon in Daddy’s wallet.
Ofcourse – You can’t start being Mechanech your kids when they are married already. I live in Lakewood in a small, broken-down house and drive an 18 year-old car!
When you EARN money from a real job, you appreciate it more.
I watch some of the comments regarding this and the tutition and its clear many do not earn their own money.
Its easy to spend other peoples money. I have the right to spend my money as I please (Assuming its “kosher”) If I wish to eat meat, I should be allowed to, If I want to go on vacation I should be allowed to. And If I want to or not want to give to a yeshiva AFTER tutition is paid. Its my right and its my right as a parent of a kid in the school to know where the money is being spent.
Could we please not forget that we encouraged and wanted our children to live in Lakewood and be in Kollel. Did we think that would come cheap? What better use for our money could there be? – Enjoy it and be proud of your kids – walk into Bais Sholom or Bais Aaron or any of the Batei Midrashim, and you will cry with emotion and joy over the amazing learning that is going on. I don’t think the kids are spending our money recklessly. Of course, there are some difficult situations, there always will be.
Seeallsides,
That’s not the point. I have no problem with a person who wants to spend his money supporting kollel.
My problem is when the “kids” demand it as if it’s their right to be supported. It’s not their right. Demanding the money as if it’s owed to you is simply a display of appalling manners.
The Wolf
seeallsides – You’re not seeing all sides! You just see your side of a yungerman or his wife living off others!
Aries – “Ofcourse, again I say take it up with the Rosh Yeshiva especially if it is ruining the sholom bayis of the mishpacha.”
Thanks, you made my day. LOL!
Why not just explain to your children (yes, if they have such demands they are still children), what ever they get from you, they will be expected to give to each and every one of their own children?!!
You’ll never see them be so anxious to get a real shtella or job and never ask for a penny again.
Many of us, don’t own homes. While homes are great investments, there will always be more and more costs (broken roof, leaking pipes) and taxes will forever be going up. Purchasing a home to rent out may be a good long term investment, but for living it may be cheaper to rent in the long run (unless the home is the only yerusha you are leaving for your kids).
I have seven siblings and many cousins friends etc. who have lived/live in Lakewood and none of them demanded a down payment. Most of them are very very grateful for whatever their parents do give them. It is the parents who feel that their kids need it. Please don’t feel guilty – if you can’t afford it don’t do it!! The same thing goes with fancy weddings and bar mitzvahs. Come on – be smart. Don’t blame everyone else.
I guess I really messed up. Noone supports us, noone helped us put down a down payment and we would never ask for money for any of it. (That’s not to say that my in-laws don’t support their daughters, but I guess thats life.) Never understood how people were able to afford all they do on “Kollel budget”, but I guess if they demand from their parents, and the parents give it, that’s the answer. If the parents don’t want to they should learn to say no, it would help everyone.
The time to have the $ discussion with the Lakewood kids is not when they are 3 years into the game.
Its when they’re in HS.
Ask my kids: How long / how much is your father going to support you?
Answer: 2 years, at the rate of monthly tuition.
They know it, my mechutonim will know it.
That’s what I can live with, and I think its quite fair. And as long as its known upfront, the happy couple can make their plans accordingly
(And If they think I’m bluffing, they’re in for a surprise. I’m not)
???”? ?’ ???? ????????? ????”?
told a Choson on his wedding day.
Remember this and you …. (cant recall exact wording but it takes only a bit of thought to fill finish the sentence)
Nobody owes you anything, Not the ????”? , your parents, your spouse, in laws etc.
Think of everything you get as a gift and you will ….
I agree with Charlie. Kids should be self sufficient. Most of my friends who are learning are self sufficient- the wife works and they live cheap.
That said, this problem is not really endemic to learning couples. Who do you think is supporting 22 year olds who get married and are going to graduate school?
PBA:
Perhaps part of the problem is that there are 22 year olds expect to be able to marry without a way to support themselves. Most 22 year old non frum jews are not married, let alone living on their own.
Does anyone actually have this issue, or is it urban legend?
Of course
“But it’s all totally, or mostly, the parents fault for not inculcating Midos, right?”
I know that many people would agree with this line. But at some point a person’s gotta take responsibility for their own actions. Anyone who is married is well past that point.
GAW: I agree
seeallsides – You’re not seeing all sides! You just see your side of a yungerman or his wife living off others!
<<< I am not a yungerman or his wife living off others – i am the working person supporting quite a large family, and i see that they appreciate every penny given them, and are learning amazing, and i really am very proud- it’s not that there aren’t exceptions, but most of the learning couples that i know are very mistapek b’muat,and i know a lot of them, really appreciate their parent’s sacrifice very much.
I certainly AM crying with emotion over that AND the lack of Midos and Derech Eretz that many of these kids have when dealing with their parents, despite being Torah scholars!!! A person of importance once said to me, Halevei Midos would go hand in hand with learning Torah. But it’s all totally, or mostly, the parents fault for not inculcating Midos, right?
<<<< we can all improve our middos and derech eretz, but i don’t think that the predominant people that are guilty of lack of middos etc are the ones sitting and learning
Seeallsides,
That’s not the point. I have no problem with a person who wants to spend his money supporting kollel.
My problem is when the “kids” demand it as if it’s their right to be supported. It’s not their right. Demanding the money as if it’s owed to you is simply a display of appalling manners.
<<<< thank you for seeing my point, i too, in turn, see yours
As I said, Of course, there are some difficult situations, there always will be. Kids should always be appreciative, I don’t think that it is kollel kids who are unique in this lack.
PBA,
Many kids in grad school take out loans, which include tuition and living expenses.
Parents see grad school as a calculated investment because, GD willing, it is temporary and leads to a parnasa.
PBA,
The difference with graduate students is that they are working towards a way to be self sufficient. Kollel doesn’t get you closer to that, so after Kollel you still have years of struggling.
Flyer, Understand etc….many young families in Lakewood are being supported by taxpayers. Maybe not you (neither specified), but that’s still a form of support. Lakewood in general is a town that takes in money from others.
MDG:
I also agree with you.
Many kids do take out loans. But most are also single.
Parents who appreciate grad school see it as an investment.
Parents who appreciate learning see it as G-d’s will.
Posters who do not appreciate learning, or more often, have a different hashkafa about the primacy of learning versus secular education or other money earning pursuits, do not see learning as worth supporting.
All of this is fine.
The only thing which is not fine is when people inject their own hashkafos into someone else’s decision, and decide they are therefore being victimized.
I never heard of married kids “demanding” a down payment from their parents. If they are demanding, than they were obviously brought up in a way that their parents spoiled them and always gave them what they “demanded”. Otherwise they’d never have the gall to ask.
My siblings in Lakewood payed for their own down payments. And the ones that didnt have enough to put down took out a loan and are slowly paying it back by living with less. I would never ever ask my parents to pay for my down payment, let alone demand that they do. I was brought up not to “expect” things coming to me
I dont know how eeryone is doing it, but from looking around at my kids friends, I see upwards of 50% and closer to 75% of couples in Lakewood, whether one or both spouses work, whether the work is part time or full time, whether the husband is learning or not, owning a house once they have 3 kids. (In my case- both are working at the present time, but despite having secular educations, arent doing well, because of the economy, like many others).
How do others do it?
Signing up for HUD at age 16-18. That way when the 10 year waiting period is over, you will be ready to buy.
Signing up for HUD at age 16-18. That way when the 10 year waiting period is over, you will be ready to buy.
That sounds like a great idea.
Quote from the original poster of this thread
“(In my case- both are working at the present time, but despite having secular educations, arent doing well, because of the economy, like many others)”
Aha. But immediately everyone goes straight to bashing the guys who are sitting and learning in kollel.
Its as if you are all self hating jews…I dont get it.
Are you jealous that you arent learning Torah all day that you have to take every opportunity to put down those who do?
Can someone explain to me why they hate kollel guys?
as Rabbi Miller, tz’l has explained many times it is because the Yetzer Hara has raised a huge kitrug against Talmedei Chochomim.
In addition, those that have not absorbed and nurtured a true Torah Daas see darkness as light and light as darkness.
the same reasons why Jews themselves have always been hated.
You hear that, all you kollel bashers??? Time to fight that yetzer hara of yours and absorb a true Torah Daas.
Thanks Mod 80. Now I understand.
Its as if you are all self hating jews…I dont get it.
I didn’t bash kollel. All I said was that if my future son-in-law demands it then he’s got another thing coming. That’s not anti-kollel — that’s anti-bad middos.
The Wolf
Why not just tell the couple “I completely understand that you want a mortgage now. However, I’m not a bank. I can help arrange a meeting with your local mortgage banker if you’d like…”
A little bit of sarcasm with your overly-demanding, spoiled-sounding rich kids is in order here…
Enough blaming their attitudes on anyone but them & start taking action to represent what your values & true feelings are.
There is simply no room for such Chutzpa on their end here.
And if this does mean a strained relationship with your kids — if this isn’t the straw that breaks the camel’s back, something is bound to soon. Because they’ll just become more & more demanding.
I know a lot of people living in Lakewood. Not a single one demanded a down payment from the parents. Mod 80, you hit the nail on the head.
i will repeat what others have said – i too know many people in lakewood who not only didn’t demand a down payment, but they didn’t demand any money from their parents and/or in-laws. some got some money and some didn’t.
and for those who say college is leading somewhere and learning in kollel isn’t. i don’t know, but most people i know who’ve learned in kollel, end up having jobs in which there learning was in preparation for – such as being rabbeim, ravs of communities, mashgiachim, or even “just” to be a talmid chochom who is also an accountant, computer programmer, etc.
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