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I remember that I was by a wedding a while ago, when I struck up a conversation with a stranger who was sitting at my table. The fellow was about 40, affable, pleasant and very yeshivish. Our conversation meandered over several topics, but at one point I mentioned the fact that Eeees and I have a wedding picture hanging in our living room. At that point he interjected by telling me that it was improper to have a picture of my wife on the walls of the house. When I asked him why, he said “it’s not tznius for a picture of a woman to be on display.”
Mind you, we’re not talking about putting her picture on a billboard or on a magazine, but just hanging on the wall of my own house. Nonetheless, he said, it’s forbidden. Then I hit him with this question:
I have yet to hear any posek that says that when a man enters the house, all the women should leave. In other words, were you to come to my house for whatever reason, there is no issur for Eeees to remain there (yichud issues aside, of course). Were you to come to my house for a Shabbos meal, for example, Eeees wouldn’t be hidden out of sight — she’d be eating at the table with us. Lord knows I’ve eaten at enough people who would well qualify as yeshivish rabbanim in this person’s eyes and in all those cases, his wives, daughters and daughters-in-law all ate at the same table as I did.
That being the case, how can it possibly be any more untznius to see a picture of my wife when it’s perfectly acceptable for her to be there in person?
After failing to give me a logical answer to that question, I then asked him for a source where it says that having pictures of women on the walls of one’s home is untznius. He could not give me one. In short, my suspicion is that he made up his “halacha” out of thin air. Nonetheless, he continued to insist that his point was correct and that no Jewish home should have pictures of women.
Unfortunately, I’ve seen this sort of thing happen very often. Heck, it even happens on these boards. When I was debating the issue of eruvin with a poster on these boards, he made the ridiculous assertion that one person misusing an eruv makes it invalid for everyone. When I asked him to back up his statement, he gave me a very generic sounding name of a sefer for which he couldn’t provide an author, time/place of publication or anything else that could help me track down the source. Knowing more about the poster now, I’m again fairly confident that he made it up.*
I don’t, of course, expect everyone to know everything. I certainly don’t have all of Tanach, Shas and Rishonim at my fingertips. And yes, there are times when I’ll know something but not know offhand where the source is. But in those instances I will qualify my statements so that I am not presenting them as absolute fact, or else I will admit, up front, that I don’t know the source.
It’s usually fairly easy to tell when someone just doesn’t know the source and when someone is making something up out of thin air. As an example, Kasha quoted a statement by Rabbeinu Tam the other day about gittin and he didn’t know the source. But my gut tells me that he didn’t make it up out of thin air. He admitted up front he’s not certain of the source, but he did say he’ll get back to me on it — and I believe him.
I suppose the point is this — don’t make stuff up. And when (if) you get caught doing so, simply retract, say you were mistaken, concede that you don’t have a source and move on. That’s all you have to do. But to stubbornly hang on and insist that your version is truth even after you’ve been caught only makes you look foolish and immature.**
The Wolf
* As an aside, even though I knew his opinion was nonsense, I followed up with my rav anyway. Yes, his opinion is nonsense and, no, my rav had never heard of this sefer.
** No, there is no recent example that led me to post this now. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for a while.
Regarding the source for the Rabbeinu Tam saying that its better for a woman to remain an Agunah her whole life rather than receive a questionable GET, although still not 100%, I think its in Rabbeinu Tam, Sefer HaYashar, Responsa, No. 24 (ed. Rosentahl, Berlin, 1898, pp. 39-42).
Otherwise you may possibly find reference to it in any of the following:
Rema, Even HaEzer 154:21
Nimukei Yosef, Yevamos 1a in the pages of the Rif s.v. Oh Nimtzeu, quoting Rabbeinu Tam
Beis Shmuel, E.H. 44:7, citing Rabbeinu Tam’s view
Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 44:5) ruling in accordance with Rabbeinu Tam
Rabbeinu Tam’s opinion explained in the Chazon Ish E.H. 79:16
BTW regarding pictures and tznius, although I too don’t have a precise source, do agree with the guy at the Chasunah. (I’m not sure if forbidden is the right term; perhaps improper is more apt.) Why do you think the Rabbonim advised the Chareidi newspapers not to print women’s photographs? For tznius purposes. Whether you agree with it or not, he didn’t make this up.
And didn’t Sarah Umeinu hide from the guests when Avrohom Avinu invited in the three guests? Sarah Umeinu did so for tznius reasons.
“Believe it or not, this was NOT meant as a reminder to you for the source.”
1. I understood that you hadn’t intended it as a reminder
2. It reminded me anyways 🙂
“That may or may not be true, but it’s actually irrelevant because it’s not the current practice in the yeshivish circles in which he, himself travels in.”
It is relevant. Modesty is not about black and white but rather intangible concepts.
“And there’s a big difference between a picture being circulated in a newspaper or magazine and one that’s hanging in the privacy of my own home.”
The concept is the same.
Wolf:
It is accepted Minhag among Chassidim to not have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their house (as I have seen myself). I would assume this is a similar concept.
It may not be “halacha”, but we never like dismissing Minhagei Yisroel.
His wrong was saying it was “Halacha” instead of a Minhag/Chumrah. This is a very common error (as I am sure you know), and I have seen this not only by Tznius, but also G’Brokts, eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, and Shkiea/Tsais (as well as others).
May we all be Zoche to “have all of Tanach, Shas and Rishonim at my (and our) fingertips”.
I long suspected that a Rebbe of mine made up gematrias as he went along (after all who can mentally add up the gematria of a possuk and challenge him). I once whipped out a calculator and started adding up the words he was quoting, he got all defensive and said “put that away, this is Limudei Kodesh, not Limudeo Chol”.
The moral of the story, I believe, is that people feel they will have more credibility if they quote something that more than 99% of the population will not be able to refute on the spot.
“If it’s okay to actually see the wife in person in such circles, then how is a problem to see a picture on the wall?”
Off the top of my head… a picture is made to be looked at, hopefully you aren’t looking at women. That being said, women (at least should be) avoid unnecessary facetime with strange men (even in their homes.) A picture can be, and is even specifically made to, be looked at repeatedly and for continued periods of time.
“You really can’t see the difference between the propriety of circulating something to thousands or millions and a picture hanging in the privacy of one’s home??”
Your home is open to guests. The only difference here is the quantity, not the concept.
It is accepted Minhag among Chassidim to not have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their house
You probably meant to say it is accepted minhug among some Chassidim not to have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their houses.
WolfishMusings-
I definitely did not mean to make a confrontation or be disrespectful, you just have understand that in high school I always had a calculator on me (besides for Shabbos and if I was wearing pajamas that didn’t have pockets). I routinely whipped it out during class (both Limudei Kodesh and Limudeo Chol) with out thinking. The Rebbe got defensive because he knew that he made it up on the spot.
Had I been a person that normally did not take a calculator everywhere I would not have brought one just to put him on the spot.
But again, if I’m not going to lock up my wife and daughter in their bedrooms when other people visit (which, to the best of my knowledge, is not practiced
Some people practice it in theory.
i did learn that it’s minhag hagoyim to have the wedding pictures out on the wall.
i wonder if she really meant that if there’s a pose that shouldn’t be seen by anyone, that’s the problem.
i don’t think i should go farther than this.
Wolf –
Of all examples, I’m glad that you chose this one to illusrate made up halochos, because of the following story:
The Chofetz Chaim was once asked to host a visiting rov, to which he readily agreed. The person making the arrangements added that, due to the guest’s chashivus, it would be proper to make “other arraigements” for the Chofetz Chaim’s rebbetzin.
The Chofetz Chaim replied with a withdrawal of his hospitality offer, with the following explanation; “I signed a kesuba that stipulates I feed my wife. Hachnosas Orchim, while very nice, cannot override my obligation to my Rebbetzin”
Not sure if this is exactly relevant, but still a very nice story about how gedolim related to their spouses in the public arena
Wolf: Your point is well-taken, though it requires diligence to look up the source and humility to back down from one’s position, traits many of us still only WISH we had.
Not knowing the source of something does not necessarily mean its made up. There are many things that people are brought up believing and practicing or things they’ve heard from teachers, Rabbeim, or other people they respect and trust, yet they do not know the source for but are confident in the persons knowledge of Torah and go by their judgement. Granted they should not be quoting something they do not know the source for and putting it down as fact, yet it should not be dismissed as “made up stuff”.
It is not a typical minhag among Chassidim to eat separately.
I don’t know any Chassidim like that. I’ve only heard some very Rebbish or Frum people doing that.
Attention coffee”rumors”:
Its time you learn the difference between Chassidim and some ULTRA ULTRA Frum people…..
*who are you talking about*
whoops – before i edited my comment, i had said “my teacher said….” and then i forgot about that, so that’s who i was talking about.
but i don’t think it’s a separate issue. i meant it could be what he meant, that it’s a problem to have the picture up on the wall.
(and i also meant chukas hagoyim, not minhag hagoyim. it was very late. 🙂
bp totty: the guest was actually Reb Meir Shapiro. reb Meir said he will only come if the Rebbetzin does not eat in the same room. The chofetz Chaim said he will ask his Rebbetzin. She was not Maskim, so he said she comes first.
I hate when people make up sources. I also hate when they take things out of context to “prove a point” which no one buys. This is especially annoying when you can have a great conversation starter, and lies, fabrication and half-truths cause the conversation to dead end.
Wolf, with the picture on the wall, I ihave a feeling that’s more of a “sensitivity” thing, where someone can dig up a source, rather than halacha. I’m not even sure chumra is the right word.
clearheaded
Member
“You probably meant to say it is accepted minhug among some Chassidim not to have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their houses.”
Yup. Sorry for lumping all Chassidim together.
Wolf – You’re right. I have photos of my daughters on display in our home, as well as wedding photos of my wife with our daughters. My Rav, who has no problem giving musser to me, has never brought it up. I have also seen wedding photo albums on display at the homes of Roshei Yeshiva.
I don’t think someone can bring a proof in halacha from was Sara being in her own tent.
And why do other frum publications, such as Artscroll, which are read by everyone and have Rabbonim to advise them; why do they allow photos of women if it were assur?
I’ve eaten in homes of Chassidim in my younger days and the entire family ate at the table.
EDITED
I’ve been in my Rosh Yeshiva’s house many times, and he has wedding pictures from his kids (with their wives) all over the walls of his living room.
Thinking Jew –
Really? I did not remeber the exact story, or perhaps it was told wrong, so thanks for clearing it up. I have a hard time believeing that R’ Shapiro (or anyone of his stature) would say something like that, but I guess if you’re quoting it in a forum that would correct you if you were wrong, I must accept the story as you note it.
But it really surprises me. The gedolim of yesteryear measured everything with sensitivity AND halacha, so this comes as a real surprise.
Guess I learn something new every day (even if it goes against mu grain.. guess that’s part of the learning curve)
People often “quote” what their rebbie said, except they have somewhat reworked the quote until it is almost unrecognizable.
You are so right, oomis. I once heard in the name of a godol (don’t remeber which) when he was told that people are “repeating his d’vrei torah in thier own name” (meaning, not giving the credit where its due)
His reply: “Thats ok. Its when the say THEIR d’vrei torah in MY name, I have a problem!
A physician warns his patient to control his weight or risk becoming ‘gadol hador’, but not in a good way.
Patient: “Not good?! Finally, I’d have a respectable source for the things I say!”
(sigh) sorry…I’m just in one of my moods.
Wolf, you said that he said it was “improper”. This does not mean he was giving a psak that it is assur, perhaps he was merely giving a suggestion for an added level of tznius, especially if your house is often open for hachnosas orchim. I do agree with you that people shouldn’t make up halachos or minhagim. Say what you mean, if you know that what you are saying is a halacha, quote it as such and if possible give a source. If you know that it is a minhag or chumra quote it as such and don’t say it over as if you are saying a halacha; say that it is a minhag/chumra, give a source and reason, mention which Jewsih sect holds of the particular minhag or chumra, etc. If you are making up something completly but feel that you have good reason to do so, say so! Say that you don’t have a source but you think… Perhaps you should ask a Rebbi first why it is that nobody has thought of your suggestion before, perhaps the rebbi will give you a reason why it is wrong or perhaps he will agree with you and then you even have someone to back you up!
In regards to the tznius issue:
Kasha said: Off the top of my head… a picture is made to be looked at, hopefully you aren’t looking at women.
Wolf said: I don’t see how that’s really relevant. I don’t think people come to my house to look at the picture on my wall.
People aren’t coming with the intent to look at the picture but once they are there, their eyes may wander…
In terms of the difference between a picture of a woman and the woman herself being there in person, I can see how someone might find the picture to be more of a problem. Someone who is looking at a woman might feel more busha if the woman herself, her husband, or someone else notices that they are looking. It is a lot easier to look at a picture without being noticed by others than to look at an actual person. The guest may at some point be alone in the room with the picture where nobody can see him staring (other than Hashem of course).
That being said, I have been in the houses of great Rabbis who have pictures of their wives and daughters on the walls. Like most of the issues of tznius discussed in the tznius thread where there is no clear halacha, this is a question of how far one is obligated to go to stop men from looking. Different people will have different chumras and minhagim.
I basically agree with HaQer, and would like to add that the content of the picture itself makes a difference. A problem is it is almost impossible to define specifically what pictures should not be for non-family consumption. But even ‘frum’ wedding pictures unfortunately have less than G rated content. For example, where the Chosson and Kallah are touching each other (such a picture should never even be taken — as even husband/wife shouldn’t be touching in front of other people i.e. the photographer — but that is a whole ‘nother discussion all its own. And let’s not get started about videos of women dancing, a whole new can of worms.)
I have a feeling that rabbonim who feel it is improper to have pictures of women on the home walls (even wedding pictures), probably feel that photos in general are shtus. To digress slightly, I had a friend who is a mikveh attendant who once asked a rov (not her own) how to handle an inyan at the mikveh regarding nail polish that was hard to get off. His response: “What is this nonsense? Why should women wear nail polish outside?” First of all, that was not her question. Second of all, this rov is clearly a person who believes B’nos Yisrael should not wear makeup outdoors (yes, that followed the response about the nail polish).
Regardless of what a rov’s personal hashkafa may be, which should be respected, halacha should be based on halacha m’Sinai, and not whether or not a Rov holds girls should concern themselves with their public beauty.
As to the comment about a picture being improper because a husband and wife should not be photographed (even at the wedding) touching each other, there are Rabbonim who hold that the chosson and kallah should b’davka hold hands when they leave the chuppah going to the yichud room. To each his own, Kasha. If that is not your derech, by all means you should not do it.
i believe that’s a different story. that touching is only to show in a concrete manner that they are now for each other and no one else. in a picture however, that is not necessary anymore and may be improper as well.
that wasn’t what i was talking about when i mentioned poses however. but i don’t want to go into it. all i say is that i didn’t mean regular picture type contact.
The holding between the chupa and yichud room is because it shows that the husband is taking possession of his wife. The same people who have this shitta are usually the same people who are very strict in keeping tznius issues. Touching or showing affection to your wife in front of other people, whether at the chasuna or elsewhere is clearly and obviously assur. Pictures aren’t an outright issur, but if the couple are touching in the picture (and I agree it should never have been taken unless perhaps they used an automated/timer camera with no one else seeing them at the time), it wouldn’t be tzniusdik to display such a photo in public.
BP Totty, the way I heard the story is that the guest was the Brisker rov. The Chofetz Chaim replied, “There is a ???? to eat with ones wife on ??? ??? and if that is your term, I can not host you”. He never asked his wife as that is the ????.
BP totty- do you have a source for your story? 😉
myfriend said exactly what i meant, just better. thank you my friend… 😉
“But he wasn’t saying what he does in his house, he was sayng what I should do in my house — and his suggestion that it is improper for me to have said picture is completely and utterly made up. If not, then please show where I am subject to *his* minhagim or interpretations of halacha.”
Since he clearly nos halacha better then you you should listen to him.
“When I was debating the issue of eruvin with a poster on these boards, he made the ridiculous assertion that one person misusing an eruv makes it invalid for everyone. When I asked him to back up his statement, he gave me a very generic sounding name of a sefer for which he couldn’t provide an author, time/place of publication or anything else that could help me track down the source. Knowing more about the poster now, I’m again fairly confident that he made it up.*”
Because you couldnt find the sefer he made it up? Im ready to bet that hes right the sefer is real and the eruv is passul if someone doesnt use it write.
myfriend, I have never heard that it is assur to touch your spouse in public?
“Lo raeenu, aino raaya”. I suppose that goes for “I never heard of that”, too. Then again, I never heard od such a thing.
shev143, it most certainly is assur.
The Shulchan Aruch/Rema says it is assur to show public affection. Would you hold your best (same gender) friends hand in the street? No, because that would be showing chiba. It is strictly forbidden to do so with your wife in public. Anyone who fears gehenim will certainly not do so. Unfortunately there are some “frum” people who aren’t afraid of gehenim.
It is in Even Ha’ezer. I don’t have the chapter handy.
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