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I don’t know why my being careful should bother you.
I don’t know why my being careful should bother you. “
HaLeiVi, it’s more the fact that by making that statement, you are now implying that the OTHER guy is NOT being careful. See?
Had you said, “I don’t know why it should bother you, when I personally demand more of myself than I really have a chiyuv to, because it strengthens me in my Avodas Hashem, and that is something I feel I need,” I would not feel you were expressing feelings of superiority at all.
And what if someone feels that everyone should be careful? Maybe it’s not an issue of personal weakness, but the way one feels any Yid should conduct themselves?
I’m not talking about mocking, which is usually out of place (except for popa mocking yct) – but am I supposed to turn off my brain and not have opinions?
When people make external sanctimonious displays of false religiosity, I’m put off. I’m impressed when I see people making a kiddush hashem, treating their parents with respect, helping the poor, loving their neighbors, etc. Wearing the nicest hat with the broadest brim, the snazziest suit, drying off lettuce leaves at the seder table, and many other chumrot we see, I think, reflects a lack of learning. When people’s stringencies reflect a sicnere parsing of halakhic literature, I respect such individuals.
OTOH, I’m often ridiculed for what people perceive to be eccentricities (i.e. I am now makpid on yashan and bishul yisrael, thus limiting my ability to eat in 99% of kasher restaurants, I only wash on breads that are bread-like and not cake-like, I only use yayin eino mevushal for kiddush, I don’t carry in string eruvin, I don’t accept payment for teaching torah, I wouldn’t want my wife to wear a wig, etc., all of which are based generally on the Rambam). Therefore, I’m sensitive to people’s religious practices in most cases.
And what if someone feels that everyone should be careful?
Why? If you can convince me that the Halacha is as such, then all well and good. I’ll go back and ask my Rov what should be done. But the items (e.g. the 4 inches once again, Lovesh Shechorim for women, Burkah Babes, etc.) which obviously have no Mekor whatsoever in Halacha (other than it being someone’s (Modern/Counter-Reformation) idea of a good thing), and the known and accepted Machlokesim (Separate seating on busses, Yoshan, Cholov Yisroel, etc.) there is no reason to argue one must be “careful” when there is a valid shittah that says you don’t.
“And what if someone feels that everyone should be careful? Maybe it’s not an issue of personal weakness, but the way one feels any Yid should conduct themselves”
DY (and I respect what you have to say, even when I disagree with some of it), you have also proved my point.
What right does ANY Yid have to judge that some other Yid who is unquestionably FOLLOWING THE HALACHA (because if he isn’t, then there is no argument), is not being sufficiently careful??????? THAT is an arrogant attitude that many otherwise frum Yidden have. It IS sancimonious, it IS divisive, and definitely leads to mocking, if not outright sinas chinam.
Just because YOU (or any other Yid) might feel you need to act a certain way, dress a certain way, daven a certain way, hold by a certain hechsher etc., does not invalidate the ways that other frum people (again, WHO ARE FOLLOWING THE HALACHA)live their lives.
There are Jews who believe we should NEVER listen to any type of music since the Churban Bayis Sheini. Do you listen to music? If so, those Jews think you are not careful in your level of observance, and that THEY alone are the ones who are careful.
I don’t happen to hold by their Hashkafa, which they are entitled to believe is the right thing. But the second they make me feel like they are smug in the knowledge that THEY alone have the universal clue and direct line to Hashem’s Good Graces, I have a problem with their thinking.
Some people who are brought up a certain way, tend to view others as somehow lesser, for not adopting all of THEIR personal chumros. It’s not fair or proper, at least when dealing with people who are shomrei Torah u’mitzvos. And btw, there are some people who appear “frummer” in their dress, their beards, their hechsher by which they hold, the Yeshivahs to which they send their kids,etc., but are sorely lacking in middos bein Odom l’Chaveiro, i.e., in their business dealings, how they act in Shul,their loshon hara etc. in my experience. BTW, all those aforementioned traits are ALSO mitzvos Bein Odom LaMakom, which many of us tend to forget. Being a mensch is a double chiyuv, both to Man and Hashem. So are they frummer than other people who hold by the hechsher you don’t, but might be very “careful” in their masah umattan, their tzedaka (that it should come from legitimate earnings), their kovod habrios?
BTW, as long as we can keep this dialogue on a respectful level, I hope the Mods will not close it. I think it’s very important.
I see quite a few commenters here who posit that it is appropriate to mock someone who is frummer than you. I do not see any justification. They are offended when someone looks askance on someone utilizing a questionable kula, and that is a horrible avala. But making fun of someone who decides to take a more machmir route on something is appropriate.
Fascinating.
Now I know Gavra is going to say that what he does is meikur hadin. Possibly. He has not convinced me of that. But the truth is, that most people who accept chumras are doing it lishma and they are genuine. Some are not, but that gives you no right to make fun of someone who is genuine.
Oomis, first of all, I’m in 100% agreement with you that it’s infinitely more important to be makpid on honesty in business dealings, derech eretz, avoiding lashon harsh, proper middos, etc. than anything which falls under the category of chumrah, and certainly externals such as yeshivish mode of dress.
But by your bringing that up as a conflict, you are, subtly and unintentionally (I say unintentionally because I do indeed respect you), doing exactly what you are decrying. You’re looking down at those who dress a certain way and keep halacha a certain way based on stereotyping it as being associated with poor being adam l’chaveiro.
My point, which I’m not sure you addressed, is that there are some things which are actually better halachically and/or hadkafically (examples will vary according to perspective) and one should firm in their opinions, and not compromise them just to satisfy some perceived need for everyone to be on the same level.
I will illustrate with two examples which you offered.
If you feel that riding toys are not in the spirit of Shabbos (I happen to disagree), not only should you stick with your idea in practice, you should in principle as well. Don’t tell your kids that their actions are just as good as yours. If their use of riding toys is 100% acceptable, why wouldn’t yours be? Tell them that it’s muttar, that those neighbors are 100% shomrei Torah, but that we feel that this degrades Shabbos.
Another issue you brought up is music. Obviously, I listen to music. I’ll use that as a reverse example. I know people who don’t listen to music. I’ll tell you a little secret; I think in that area, they are conducting themselves on a higher level than I am. Listening to music is actually halachically questionable, and I have reasons that I rely on the heterim in this case. By recognizing this, I can respect those who are machmir, and see it as an ideal to strive for. Isn’t that better than feeling insulted and put down?
nishtdayngesheft: Please be more specific, as I’m not sure to what you are referring. I personally may (or may not) be Machmir in any of the items that I mentioned (as far as you know, I’m wearing a Burka as I write this
:-).
The answer was to a very specific question regarding telling others that they have to be more careful in Halacha. They do not when Rav Moshe or the Tchebiner Rov or Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach said that the action is muttar. I don’t see how anyone can disagree with that. That is certainly true if they asked their own Rov who tells them they can follow a specific P’sak.
If you have a (real, not someone’s made-up “good idea”) Mekor for 4 inches, Shechorim or Burkas, let me know (and start a new thread with the source). I’ve tried before with no success. That is opposed to real Halachic issues such as Yashan, Zimrah, Magen Avraham Kriyas Shema, Cholov Yisroel, etc. where if someone wants to be Yotze according to all shittos, then Tavo Alav Bracha. It is also opposed to a “style” of dress, such as shaved head & hat & shaitel, straimels, etc. which is “Derech Yisroel Saba” and a good reason in of itself, even without Halachic justification.
P.S. Do your Tefillin have Sirtut? 🙂
Oomis +1
DY: Looks like we agree.
But by your bringing that up as a conflict, you are, subtly and unintentionally (I say unintentionally because I do indeed respect you), doing exactly what you are decrying. You’re looking down at those who dress a certain way and keep halacha a certain way based on stereotyping it as being associated with poor being adam l’chaveiro.”
If you got that impression, perhaps I was a little unclear. I know I was careful to say “SOME people” (please re-read what I wrote), specifically so as to NOT imply what you inferred from my words. Would you agree with the statement that SOME frum-looking Jews who are extremely makpid in certain areas that may or may not be halachically required at all (and tend to believe and show that they feel that the rest of us are not quite up to their level), sadly are not likewise makpid in other areas which ARE halachichally required, as opposed to some of their chumros (that they come to view as Halacha, but which are not)?
Second, you answered – “Don’t tell your kids that their actions are just as good as yours. If their use of riding toys is 100% acceptable, why wouldn’t yours be? Tell them that it’s muttar, that those neighbors are 100% shomrei Torah, but that we feel that this degrades Shabbos.”
My kids are grown, and they also believe that it is simply not in keeping with the spirit of Shabbos to allow children to ride on the street on toys that would be assur to them when they are a little older. So am I on a higher madreiga for NOT allowing my kids (or grandkids) to do this? From MY standpoint it is not halachically proper to do such uvda d’chol. I was taught by more Modern Orthodox parents compared to these Yeshivish families, and no one in my childhood ever allowed their kids to touch a bicycle on Shabbos, much less actually ride on one. So if you are saying it is 100% muttar (though not for me), I will take you at your word for now (though check with my rov), still not let the kids use their riding toys in the street, because it resembles chillul Shabbos too much, and still not hold myself frummer than they are. I certainly do not think of them as anything less than ehrliche, frum Yidden. BTW, if I were to tell my kids “this degrades Shabbos,” that is actually a definite put down of those people who are in my eyes, degrading Shabbos.
When you say that there are things that are halachically and hashkafically better, are you not in a subtle way implying that Ch’vSh the halacha that Hashem Gave us, is somehow lacking in something? I don’t know, but I would feel better (apologizing for being a little repetitious)if the attitude were more, “I need this in order to strengthen my own avodas Hashem,” and not that this is a better Halacha or Hashkafa (and therefore EVERYONE should be doing it, in order to be better Jews).
As to the music issue, until our Daas Torah collectively tell us that music is assur (and perhaps we should also not listen to birds chirping – I am not being facetious – because that “music” makes me happy), I will continue to listen to it, to enjoy it, and feel a little sad for people who deny themselves that pleasure in life, because to them, it is a better way of serving Hashem.
Do we not say Ivdu es Hashem b’simcha?????? Did that change with the Churban? What’s next, we stop drinking wine and eating meat? Ein simcha ella b’vasar v’yayin…(hope I quoted that right). So I’ll keep listening to and singing the music and not feel less frum for that. There are so many ways in which we can enhance our Avodah, and we SHOULD. But not at the expense of believing we are more heilige than someone who doesn’t subscribe to our own particular enhancement. That borders on gaivah, IMO. Just sayin’…
I guess this is an issue which will push a lot of buttons here, and I personally am glad that we can talk about this like menschen.
GAW,
The OP was mentioning people who make fun of others who are “frummer” than them.
You seem to condone such a ridicule. I do not see how it is more appropriate than someone putting down someone for following a more lenient view.
What type of tefillin, or even if I do wear tefilin is not really your business. I might even wear the 64 pair your buddy 147 recommends.
As far as a mekor for some of the chumros? See Rashi Vayikra 19, 2.
Oomis’ response to HaLevi is a case in point. She seems to be highly offended buy something she is reading into someone else’s practices.
I am not bothered by those who accept more stringent measures for themselves. I have family members who are very stringent about various practices, my policy is live and let live.
nishtdayngesheft:
You seem to condone such a ridicule.
I do not. Shalom Al Yisroel. 🙂
“Hisrachek” is as much as a source for Burkas as not eating Chummos. Maybe not eating Chummos is Richuk from Arayos? Eating techina certainly brings on Hirhurim and should be disallowed. Maybe we will allow Matbucha 😉
I don’t care what you or anyone else does in practice, Chumrah or Kula. I am offended that all of this money and time is spent to teach nothing. Even worse, they think they know “Halacha”, and try to pass it off onto others as a requirement. The girls are better off learning Satmar-style (we do it because Bubby did it), as I mentioned before. Bubby did not measure 4 inches (she probably didn’t own a ruler, and certainly not one that measured inches), Bubby did not wear a Burka, and Bubby would have been horrified to see her great-great granddusghters wearing all black. She would possibly think that it is an Ayin Hara for sitting shiva.
What Bubby did know is how to be a Tzanuah, run a Kosher and erlich home, and how to Kasher chickens (a lost art). Unfortunately, some parts of our society feel those values outdated, and stress bringing home the Flanken for your husband sitting in Kollel, while he learns fewer hours with less hasmadah than the businessman who works for the federal reserve.
In many ways, Satmar really does it right.
the first “less” should be “fewer”. Sorry about that.
fixed
Thanks Mods 🙂
my policy is live and let live. “
What a coincidence, NDGSh! So is mine!!!
That’s my policy too. I’m too involved into my own personal affairs. I don’t care for the purported feelings I may read into another regarding me. I don’t view everyone more zealous than me as having a condescending attitude toward me.
Oomis, you missed my earlier point. You missed out on that lesson that we try to teach our children. We don’t have to think that what we are doing is over the top extra credit in order not to judge others. When I say that I am careful, I am not thinking of you. Perhaps it sounds confusing, which proves why it is important to teach this to children.
Imagine this conundrum. I am doing what I think (or I would say, know) is the important thing to do. And yet, that has nothing to do with others.
HaLeiVi, kol hakavod to you (not being sarcastic). What you think and what you know, are not necessarily what others think and know is THE important thing to do. As long as you recognize it is important for YOU and not necessarily for anyone ELSE, then I am in total agreement with you. But as soon as someone even unconsciously feels that THE important thing for HIM to do must also be important for everyone else on the planet, as it sometimes ends up happening, it creates a feeling of superiority.
We can’t help it. We are human, and there is a nugget of gaivah in us that makes us a little smug when we see people who don’t drink cholov Yisroel when we do, or who use an eruv when we don’t, or don’t hold by the later time of Motzai Shabbos, or who go by the OU hechsher and not a “heimish” one.
It is an endless list of things people can feel better about themselves for doing, while feeling others are in the wrong. And someone who claims not to feel this way, might be proved to being not honest with himself, as soon as a shidduch is recommended for him with someone who doesn’t hold by his derech.
I think we are not going to resolve this point, because we both come from different mindsets, and you do not view things as I do, and that’s fine. I can appreciate your view. I would feel more resolution in this issue, if people adopted the attitude that their mehalach might be better for them personally, because it speaks to something that they feel they need to work on in themselves, but not because others are doing something that is l’chatchilah not proper.
Oomis, in some cases that’s just being intellectually dishonest.
What you’re really saying is that we should turn our brains off.
DY: There is a chasm between valid and “Chumrah”. I can be Machmir while realizing that other Shittos are valid. There is no reason to feel superior and no reason to push your view when you agree that the other side is valid as well.
Case in point: Cholov Yisroel. Let’s say I am not Meikel and I’ll be smug in saying so :-). Rav Moshe says it is muttar. Is there any reason for me to be smug? Not really, as the other individual is following the undisputed Gadol HaDor. Any reason for me to push them to only use Cholov Yisroel? Once again, not really, for the same reason.
I think your point is true not regarding “Chumros”, but being a “Medakdek B’Halacha”, someone who is “careful” to follow Halacha. That person may drink Cholov Stam, but will double-check the Hechsher of the restaurant even though he sees Yidden eating there. Its the woman who askes the Rov the Marre instead of dropping it (one way or the other, CV). Its the guy who researches the Eruv, or asks his Rov, and looks into it, not just following the crowd. That’s not being “Frum”, its being a Yarei Cheit (and usually the only person who knows is you yourself, and your spouse) Kol HaKavod to someone like that, I envy them and their Olam Haba.
Gavra, first of all, I said “some cases”. Yes, there is a difference between cases in which there is a valid shittah, and cases in which there isn’t.
But I don’t think being smug ever has a place. Should I feel superior compared to a mechallel Shabbos? I think not, yet I’m sure you’ll agree that I shouldn’t feel like what they’re doing is perfectly fine.
That having been said, I think there are certain “chumros” which should be considered inherently better.
So I can give you several halachic arguments* why one should be makpid on Cholov Yisroel, yet understand that there is a shittah to be meikil, and, in fact not mock someone who eats actual tarfus (unless specific circumstances dictate that “leitzsnusa d’avodah zarah” is in order).
*I’d be more than happy to take that to another thread, if you’d like.
DY: I’m well aware of the arguments, and you can even say “inherently better” (Rav Moshe basically did). What you can’t say is that because that person doesn’t keep it, you have some maaleh over them, OR that they should start.
Aderabah, (IMHO) you (specifically, not just someone who has a chumrah) should feel “accomplished” (a better word than “smug”) as someone who is fulfiling their tachlis in life. We were put here to work, and those who work deserve to feel good about themselves. Of course, you don’t know what the other person’s nisyonos are, so they may have completed their tachlis as well (even if they are a mechalel shabbos), but you can feel good about your accomplishments.
Oomis, in some cases that’s just being intellectually dishonest.
What you’re really saying is that we should turn our brains off”
Dy, if THAT’S what you are getting from what I wrote, you misunderstood literally everything. I certainly do NOT feel that way; mamesh l’hefech! read what gavrah-at-work posted recently. He states it very well.
We cannot and MUST not ever turn our brains off. What we would do well to do is accept that we alone are not the ones with the correct frum observance, thus qualifying, or better yet, OBLIGATING us to feel sad for everyone else, because we know for a fact that they too, could be so much better (if only they would do what WE do). It is an arrogant assumption. Likewise, let me state FTR that it is equally arrogant for someone who is a little more to the left of that (but still Shomer Mitzvos k’Halacha), to look negatively at other guy who chooses to hold by more machmir standards for whatever reason. Some people like chocolate and some people like vanilla. As long as the ice cream is kosher, it still makes a delicious sundae.
I’m sorry, but having a firm opinion isn’t arrogance, even if that opinion is not one according to which not everyone lives.
BTW, from a previous post, it seems that you are not aware that listening to music is a serious halachic shailah, not just a personal feeling.
This is my last remark, G-d willing, on this particular thread, because I think it has run its course. Having a firm opinion is not always the same as the smugness that one sometimes feels while having that firm opinion, and that smugness that SOME feel IS arrogance. Perhaps you don’t see that. OK, I don’t blame you for that. Apparently though, enough people HAVE experienced that sort of attitude coming from someone else who superficially appears “frummer,” to the point that it bothers them very much.
In my humble and honest opinion, no one is right to demonstrate that he feels he is a better Jew than another person. Only Hashem Gets to Decide that. It’s not menschlech, and it makes the other person feel diminished. Some people react to this type of behavior by “mocking” the frummer-looking person, which is what this thread was about to begin with. I think that THAT is just as wrong. No matter what our level of observance is, we have a mitzvah of V’ahavta l’rayacha kamocha, and this is NOT the way to achieve that middah. I really am out of material, now. We need to start a new thread. How about “50 yummy ways with p’tcha…”?
Apparently though, enough people HAVE experienced that sort of attitude coming from someone else who superficially appears “frummer,” to the point that it bothers them very much.
It’s true that their are arrogant people in all walks of life, but I don’t think that negates the point made in the OP.
You only need one yummy way with p’tcha.
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