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I heard a fabulous concept by a shiur. What do you think of it.
“people tend to mock someone frumer than them in order to sooth their own conscience that they are not on that level”
For example:
1)you see someone wearing a skirt 4 inches below their knee, ur skirts are much shorter so u say
“she is holier than thou” or “does she have her own shulchan orach?”
do u agree with this concept?
Yes, people try to knock down others in order to feel good about themselves.
Did you see that person who started a thread about it? They think they’re so much better than everyone else who knocks down people who think they’re frummer?
I disagree. I don’t think they are trying to soothe their consciences, I think they are putting down the higher level of frumkiet to make sure it doesn’t threaten them into change.
Syag, I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think they’re related.
Torah613, that was very cynical of you. Sure that could be a motivation, but mockery can be very powerful and stinging, and understanding where it comes from can be very beneficial in withstanding the effect
Maybe they feel threatened by the people frummer than them because they feel like they’re being judged. And making fun is their way of trying to convince themselves that they don’t care.
Everyone does it. Giving that as an example is usually an example of the reverse. Everyone likes to make fun of everyone both Frummer and less Frum than them. It’s a problem.
No one should make fun of anyone. Period. But people who do, tend to comment on the “frumkeit” because they feel that the frummer- looking person IS judging them. And that frummer-looking person often IS. Re-read some of the posts on this forum, and you will see that this is often quite true. The Cholov Yisroel posts are very revealing. And let’s not get into tzniusdig clothing (well.. yes.. let’s get INTO them… but… oh you know what I mean!)
One of my highschool rebbeim said it best. “Anyone to the right of me is a chnyock and anyone to the left of me is a sheigetz.” I’m pretty sure I quoted it elsewhere in the CR many times.
I can’t speak for others, but I don’t make fun of people for having different beliefs than I do. I sometimes argue when I think someone is doing something wrong (not just a chumrah, actually doing something wrong, such as people davening way after the zman on a regular basis).
What bothers me is when people try to say they’re better because they do things differently – and this thread is a good example! The OP said “someone frummer than you”. Just because you may keep a chumrah that I don’t doesn’t make you more frum than me. You may be more machmir, but that doesn’t mean more frum. We’re different, that’s all. Only Hashem knows who is doing things “better”, because only Hashem knows what’s going on in everyone’s heart.
When my kids see things which are different than the way we do things, we explain to them, “Different people do things differently, and that’s ok. We do things this way, and they do it hat way. They’re both right!”
DaMoshe +1
The OP said “someone frummer than you”. Just because you may keep a chumrah that I don’t doesn’t make you more frum than me.
The term “frummer” is used, whether with a positive or negative connotation, to refer to keeping a more stringent halachic standard. By this commonly used definition, keeping extra chumros is synonymous with being “frummer”.
Not being judgmental does not mean to equate your ideas with theirs. It means to simply be non-judgmental.
We don’t tell our children that what we are doing is not important and they could just as well be doing what the others are doing. We teach our children a much stronger message, that although what we are doing is actually very important, these nice people don’t do it and it is none of our business.
DaMoshe
I get your point in a sense.
Meaning if someone is being Machmir due to superiority or the like, then yes they are not better, in fact thet would be in the realm of “Ba’lei Gaivoh”.
However someone who is genuinely Machmir due to a higher level of learning or because they wish to be more makpid on kashrus.
Well.
Yes that person is better then me.
They are on a higher level.
And that’s not my opinion. It’s explained in great detail by Mesilas Yeshorim.
with everything damoshe said in mind, its still possible that there are people that are just to extreme and people not listening to basic halachis. A way to avoid saying “people are overfrum” due to feelings of inferiority is by understanding that some things youre just not holding by and wud in fact be doing more harm than good at this moment. Extra credit in yiddishkeit is really only if your holding there, otherewise it might not even count.
Growing up I wore a black hat. I decided to wear one on Shabbos. I took pride in wearing the black hat. The hat I wore was not a main stream brand, in fact it was a cowboy hat brand. I got the hat reshaped so it looked more traditional but you could still tell that it was different. My father never wore a hat and my grandparents were not religious.
When I went to a sleep away camp, I became aware of other people’s reaction to my hat. People were always trying to ‘fix’ the hat and telling me how weird it was. They eventually bent the hat out of shape. After the camp I never wore the hat again and I still don’t wear one.
It goes both ways with the bottom line being: People will make fun of others just to raise themselves up. I know I might get some flak for saying what I’m about to say but I believe that it should be said. Jews should try to get along with other Jews and ignore the differences. Obviously Jews should also practice proper Halacha, but as Rodney King once said, “Can’t we all just get along.”
Darn it! Frummer isn’t necessarily better. The concept of “crazy frum” is a valid one. No one mocks other religious Jews. It’s the nut balls who are, in effect, inventing they own religion who are risible and frankly deserving of mockery. My Rav always said that before one adds chumrahs, one should make sure that he is being m’kayeim all S’A as written. Once you’ve satisfied the Beis Yosef and the Ramah, then you can add stuff. In the example given, if the halacha is that a woman’s knee should be covered, then a skirt 4″ below the knee isn’t “frummer”, it’s just a style. If that particular woman thinks that she is, somehow, demonstrating greater devotion to G-d and Torah, she is mistaken.
The term “frummer” is used, whether with a positive or negative connotation, to refer to keeping a more stringent halachic standard. By this commonly used definition, keeping extra chumros is synonymous with being “frummer”.
Rav Gifter ZTL used to say “A Galach (priest) is Frum, a Yid is Erlich”.
If I see someone with a skirt B’Davka 4 inches below (by watching them do the measurement, for example), I don’t make fun. I think Nebuch that someone was taught so wrong that they paid all that money for Bais Yaakov & Sem and still are Am Haratzos.
is making sure their skirt is long enough offensive to you or is there a different point you were trying to make. What ‘method’ would you prefer girls to use?
I’m going to start off by saying I hate the phrase “not on that level.” I don’t know why. It just irks me. “Oh, she’s not on that/my level.” Or “he’s not on that/my/their/our level.” Teach me about my holy forefathers – “Well, he wasn’t on that level yet at the time.” Seriously? Who are we to judge?
I’m sorry, but that phrase itself sounds so snooty. And I find more often than not, it’s the people the OP speaks of, the ones who need to soothe their consciences, who use the term to describe others the most.
@gavra_at_work – I like that quote a lot!
@Burnt Steak – You ought to start a fashion trend. IMHO, black cowboy hats look cooler than fedoras! Why alter it to “fit in” when it’s such a unique style? Okay, maybe sometimes it doesn’t hurt to blend in, but still. I think you should wear it again, and when people ask about why it looks different, tell them, “I wear a stetson now. Stetsons are cool.”
interesting how the thread turned a bit into “why its really okay to put down those people because really they deserve it”
I don’t see a huge difference in the put downs from either side, both sides are pretty hurtful (spiteful?) and nothing is ever gained. Every person should work on their own daled amos and not worry about the next guys ‘level’.
Syag Lchochma – Its the 4 inches that I find offensive. People are being taught things that have no basis in Halacha. This leaves us with Am HaAretz Jews who have a set of rules that they follow, but no understanding of why they exist or where they come from (or even if they make sense, which this one doesn’t).
My suggestion: Teach the Halacha (skirts must cover the knee at all times) as well as why (Kriyas Shema, Rishonim, etc.) and people should be able to understand what their own body covers require in order to follow the Halacha.
I think that what people make fun of, or point out, or criticize, is when someone is very frum or strict in one area but completely lacking in another basic area, e.g., they are extremely makpid on kosher, but lacking in basic chesed, or they pay special attention to being tznius in their own dress while speaking lashon hora about how other people dress. Not saying it is right, but I think that’s what draws people to “make fun” of people who are supposedly “on a higher level.”
GAW – so here’s MY problem. Please understand that I am coming from the SAME place as you and would have made the exact same comment. but that would have been without actually having a clue how they were taught, just assuming all those things you said. Do you really have a daughter in BY who was taught to measure her skirt without being given an explanation? Have you been sitting in with those girls listening to them wonder what 4 inches has anything to do with skirts?
Those are very strong and serious allegations about a whole community, and maybe you really did find this to be true among your BY friends, but I was spouting those EXACT comments most of my life, with the support of my friends, and I found out I was actually TOTALLY incorrect.
those allegations are loads of fun but they are just trash talk. Nobody wants to hear or believe that but most of the crud that each side spews about the other is based on ignorant assumptions, or deciding that if it happened in my community it means the rest of the Jewish world is also doing it, and the damage has been irreparable.
If you don’t like what you see, Thank Gd you aren’t the one doing it. And pray for clarity for your fellow Jew.
seperate from the other post, so it doesn’t get lost, your suggestion is exactly how it was taught to my kids and the 4 inch rule makes it a LOT easier to shop. If it is 3 inches but still covers the knee, NOBODY CARES, it is just as fine!
If it is 3 inches but still covers the knee, NOBODY CARES, it is just as fine!
Which is precisely why I would never marry your daughter.
phew!
Syag Lchochma: Wrong, some people do care! I’ve heard that in many schools, the hanhalah uses a ruler to measure the 4 inches!
syag: I wish you were right. I really do. 🙁
I’ve heard . . .
If that is indeed true, than I take pity on them, but I would harldly consider it a curricular norm based on that report, sorry.
In the BY high school I went to, they would use a ruler to measure it, and then would whack your shins with the ruler if it was one speck shorter than 4 inches.
It’s better than the BYS where they would measure it, and then if it wasn’t long enough, they would squish your legs to make it long enough. (Bais Yaakov Sdom)
Apart – except for the tall Nebuch woman, who needs 4 1/2 inches and every time she gets up, she is not Tzanuah. 🙂
I have no problem with the “Kabbalah” people. They are not claiming that they understand, and were not taught. There certainly is a derech in Klal Yisroel for accepting that “this is what Bubby did”.
I never liked the “Bas Melech” argument. It certainly doesn’t hold water in our times, when the wives are going out to work (so the husbands can stay in Kollel). Once again here, in certain communities there is room for it.
If that is indeed true, than I take pity on them, but I would harldly consider it a curricular norm based on that report, sorry.
So we agree. Shalom Al Yisroel.
gavra- when a prince goes to fight a war with his father’s enemy to enable his fathers kingdom to survive he still wears his royal clothing, unless he’s kept hostage by the enemy.
It’s always good to remember who you are and where you belong to; no matter where you are unless you feel hostile.
Torah613, that was very cynical of you. Sure that could be a motivation, but mockery can be very powerful and stinging, and understanding where it comes from can be very beneficial in withstanding the effect
You’re right. I shouldn’t have responded that.
The OP makes a good point.
Apart – If a prince goes to war wearing his suit of armor because 700 years ago that is what they wore to battle, he will soon be a dead prince. He certainly will not be effective on the battlefield.
it doesnt look good regardless
gavra_at_work
You sound dangerously close to reform Judaism.
gavra- that’s probab;y the reason price harry was seen wrong in most people’s eyes.
war tactics have changed but the yetzer hora did not he still resides within our hearts. lets not fool ourselves!!
WIY: Or someone who understands why we all don’t wear a Fez. Or that armor is heavy 😉 (in PBA style)
Apart: Agreed. Someone who uses tactics from last century to fight this year’s battle will certainly lose. Unless you want to say it is a Machlokes Napoleon vs. Voltaire.
PBA: That sounds like what they did in the Catholic high school I went to.
I have no issue with people who adopt chumros. I respect them, IF they recognize that their chumros are NOT the Halacha, and do not hold themselves as superior simply based on the fact that THEY hold by chumros. Unfortunately, some who are very machmir tend to view themselves as better Jews, based on how many chumros they follow. And that, IMO is why so many people have negative feelings when they see so-called “frummer” people.
I don’t care if you want to only wear black with no color whatsoever (even the “permissible” ones). I DO care, however, if you look down on ME because I AM wearing colors. I care if you think you are more frum than my son because he likes to wear colored shirts and socks (anyone see the Shadchan letter in the Flatbush Jewish Journal last week, and the responses to that column? No, it was not my son, but the girl’s mother’s attitude AND the Shadchan’s made me very upset).
I said it before and I will say it again. NO one should mock anyone, but especially not anyone who is a Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos, even if that person does not subscribe to your personal Hashkafa. It is arrogant, it is sinas chinam, and most certainly is not “frum” behavior.
i make fun of people who are less frum than me. if they feel bad enough maybe they will realize that what they are doing is wrong and come back on the derech. it really hasn’t been working so well. any suggestions?
oomis: +1 I don’t know what planet some people were brought up in , but the way I was brought up , we don’t make fun of ANYONE! Yes , we can meet up with people less frum than we are, but who am I to judge?
Poppa – What length skirt did you wear in the Bais Yaakov d”Sadom? You must have really stood out!
oomis, its an issue whats going on with the clothing nowadays. its an attractive lifestyle to dress certain ways and if it goes against some BASIC torah values, the last resort may sometimes be making fun. laitzanoosa davoidah zara is a real thing. im not saying you shud say it to the guys face or about a specific person but MAKING FUN of these things to ones children is a useful tool in showing how crazy some wrong actions are.
oomis, its an issue whats going on with the clothing nowadays. its an attractive lifestyle to dress certain ways and if it goes against some BASIC torah values, the last resort may sometimes be making fun. laitzanoosa davoidah zara is a real thing. im not saying you shud say it to the guys face or about a specific person but MAKING FUN of these things to ones children is a useful tool in showing how crazy some wrong actions are. “
OYOYOY, I don’t know where to begin. Basic Torah values are not the question. people who follow BASIC Torah values ARE doing the right thing. I get the sense from what you posted, that you subscribe to the belief that basic Torah values are NOT basic. And to teach one’s children to make fun of these things, is IMO, not such a wise middah for a parent to teach a child.
I always taught my children when they observed certain behaviors which I found negative (even if not oveir on a mitzvah per se), that this is not how WE in our family behave, although some other mommies and daddies feel it is OK for their children to do so.
I’ll give you an example. I am not Yeshivish, but in my life I NEVER allowed my kids to ride on riding toys in the street OR in the house on Shabbos. We taught them from day one that there is certain behavior that we do during the week, and certain behavior that we do on Shabbos, and that we don’t want them to do weekday things on Shabbos.
My neighbors, very lovely young couples who are all Yeshivish, allow their young kids (below bar-mitzvah age, but even close to it)on Shabbos, to ride on toys that look like cars, trucks, tricycles,scooters, etc. It frankly shocks me, but apparently is not assur. These are all choshuveh people, some of them from the homes of Roshei Yeshivah. I in my non-Yeshivish household, would never have even thought to allow kids to ride on toys that resemble muktzeh item, just for chinuch ALONE, even if not technically an issur.
But I would never make FUN of these families, much less make fun of them to my CHILDREN, just because I have a different hashkafah. Maybe MY hashkafa is a chumrah, and my kids could have all along used those same toys on Shabbos. I have no charata on the chinuch part.
Even if someone is chas v’sholom mechalleil Shabbos, you should not make FUN of him. There is a difference between teaching your kids what you feel is the right thing to do and what you expect of them, and teaching them to disrespect another person, who does something else.
Perhaps you didn’t actually mean “make fun of” but rather to be pointing out that we do things differently, and in our opinion the other person is not doing what the Torah teaches us.
The biggest issue for me here is when people proclaim”We only eat ___________ mehadrin hechsher. They imply by default that there is something not quite kosher about the other mehadrin hechserim. Why isn’t that statement lashon hora?
My son’s rebbe invited the class for a barbecue and announced beforehand which hechser he would use. It was not one that we ever used. I asked our Rav what to do and he said of course you let your son go to the barbecue and eat whatever his rebbe serves. All of these mehadrin hechsherim are reliable!
However it still bothers me when someone says with an air of authority-We don’t use THAT hecsher!
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