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So recall my cast iron pan? yes?
Recall that i don’t really wash it? yes? It is filthy.
Recall that i make corn bread in it?
Is that muttar?
If it isn’t, then is my pan now issur also because of chanan?
Chanan Bisha?
Aw c’mon. The pan??
is my pan now issur also
I think so though I have no cast iron proof
It’s most probably natlap and therefore the bread the bread and the pan (the pan was never a problem) are both kosher.
If the pan was used within 24 hours though, then if its dirty, it depends.
The bread would have to be unrecognizable as fleishig, meaning that if it has meat all over it or if it’s in a shape that reminds you of meat, then its ok.
Or, if the bread is small and you eat it all right away then you will be fine.
Interestingly, I am learning the sugya right now, so I’m not 100% sure as I haven’t finished it yet, but I think I’m more or less right.
Does the issur of making non-parve pread extend to corn bread?
How much bread did you cook?
Less than a days worth is probably fine(as I recall).
Also, Its probably not really issur. Its just something you cant have around, right?
aren’t you allowed to cut bread you intend to eat with meat with a meat knife. and don’t we assume meat knife has meat on it?
RavHamachshir,
It only becomes assur if it’s fleishig when baked. You’re allowed to eat a salami sandwich (except for the problem of v’nishmartem m’od l’nafshoseichem…).
popa_bar_abba: uneeq: you tell me what it is. I use it for meat and then I don’t clean it very well. It is pretty greasy
If it’s pretty greasy, then lekatchila its assur to make the bread in the pot, unless you make the bread recognizable as “meaty” before the bread is finished baking. Or you can make the bread small and eat all of it right away.
Even though there most probably 60 parts against the grease, that even if you would eat with dairy there would be no issur of bosser vecholov, almost all poskim consider making such bread-lekatchila assur from the din “ein mevatlin issur lekatchila”, and some consider it even bedieved assur.
However, intent also plays a part. If you have unintentionally spilled grease on the dough, or if you didn’t know of this halacha before you made the bread, some say muttar, some say assur, but that’s where I got up to in Siman 97 so I haven’t finished that topic yet.
Calling out to Hello99, DY, or yitay to finish this one off.
PBA: I would think that doesn’t apply to corn bread.
PBA: The G’zeira is because Ki Al Halechem Yichyeh Ha’adam. I assume that doesn’t apply to corn bread, but I guess it could. I guess that could bear research.
popa: Uneeq: But the grease is on the pan, not in the batter. So then when I bake it, it will still be touching the grease which will still be in the pan, and will only go in a k’dei netila because it is tzli. So then I would need 60 in the netila, which I don’t have. Because we aren’t bekiin bein kachush l’shamen.
Uneeq: Also, why do you say it would be assur to lechatchila put in less than a shishim of milk into bread?
Read the top of this page http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=4&daf=30b&format=pdf
It’s exactly your case, and it says KOL hapas KULA assura. It’s a gezeira derabbonon that when you bake a certain way, they assur’d the whole bread. It seems to me that the gemoros case is talking about even when there’s more than 60.
Even if the gemoro is talking davka under 60, I saw many achronim (I’m not finished looking up though) that assur because of Ein Mevatlin Issur Lekatchila. Because as Sam said, al ha’lechem yichye ha’adam, so when you make the bread it’s assumed that you will eat it any meal, meat or dairy.
Popa,
Did you see the PRM”G (M”Z) and Gilyon Maharsh”a?
On 97 about bittul l’chatchilah of milk in bread.
No problem.
I’m just wondering though; since making a different tzurah is a heter for baking milchig or fleishig bread, if someone only makes fleishig corn bread, never pareve, is there an issur?
I would think it’s okay.
DY: I’m just wondering though; since making a different tzurah is a heter for baking milchig or fleishig bread, if someone only makes fleishig corn bread, never pareve, is there an issur?
It depends whether the rest of his family knows that it’s fleishig.
If they do, then it should be fine.
popa: But our case (of mixing less than a 60th of milk into dough) is different, since our intention is not to eat it with the other min. I see no reason to assume that the issur applies to that case.
With bread, we assume automagically that you will eat it with the other min.
Ki al Halechem yichye Ha’adam.
PBA: If the corn bread is always made in this Fleishig pan and corn bread is easily distinguishable as corn bread, then being corn bread itself would inherently count as a different Tzurah. (This is entirely Leshitascha. I think that this wouldn’t apply to corn bread or any other bread not from the 5 Minim.)
PBA,
No, I don’t have a source, but I don’t see why one type of unique appearance (color and texture) should be different than another (shape).
Sam2,
PBA is discussing corn bread which has wheat flour in it and is a hamotzi.
Badei Hashulchan discusses whether the tzura has to be universally unique or it’s sufficient that it be unique to the home in which it was baked (machlokes Chochmas Adam and Chavas Daas).
I think this would apply to our case.
PBA: Can you look at it and say “oh. that’s my corn bread”? If so, it looks different than bread.
PBA: Nevermind. I didn’t realize it was Hamotzi bread. Still, I think if it’s recognizable as your corn bread that it’s okay. As DY points out, why is color and texture not enough of a different appearance as shape would be?
popa: Do you have a source for that? I saw that you can make a siman in the tzura, but I haven’t seen that you can have the whole type of bread be your siman. Like that you only make whole wheat bread fleishig.
Similar to what itche is saying. I’m assuming corn bread looks a bit different than regular bread. If that’s true, and everyone in the house knows that the corn bread is fleishigs, than its fine.
Hello99,
The R’ma simply says it must have a different tzura.
I wonder what the pshat is with english muffins.
Maybe ein issur chal al issur. 😉
Mazel Tov on the ET (what topic?).
I mean to ask what you meant when you wrote “On that topic…”. (Encyclopedia Talmudis is complete?)
Thomas English Muffins are less than 1/60 milk. I once had an email exchange with the OU on this subjuct and will try to dig it up and post it.
hello: It seems to me that the uniqueness of corn-bread would not meet the criteria of the Rashba, as a consumer would not see it as an indication of the corn-bread’s fleishig status, but rather of the uniqueness of corn-bread.
For consumers you are right. That would be in line with the Maharit brought down in the Pischei Tshuva. But for households it would be fine if everyone knows that the homemade corn-bread is fleishigs.
I also saw somewhere that we’re not choshesh for guests coming over the house.
Hello: Thomas English Muffins are less than 1/60 milk. I once had an email exchange with the OU on this subjuct and will try to dig it up and post it.
IIRC, The tzemach tzedek says that there is also an issur of ein mevatlin with even less than 1/60. THe nachlas tzvi argues but I think that most achronim go with the tzemach tzedek.
However, since bedieved anyways it would be kosher, and I assume that Thomas is a non-jewish owned company, I can understand a svara that there’s no issur of ein mevatlin with goyim.
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