- This topic has 111 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
SJS – no make up EVER?
Prolly in the minority…
I know of two people, My Grandmother a”h and a girl in my High School class.
I wore makeup to my wedding, and immediate family weddings. That’s it. Every once in a while, I’ll put on a light colored lipstick (usually a color that matches my lips to moisturize for chapped lips).
But I’m so naturally beautiful LOL (j/k for anyone who thinks this is serious).
Either way makeup is supposed to enhance not be the main focus. If you are um, not pretty no amount of makeup is going to help 😉
Pascha – I am not ignoring your request, I am at work, er um, pretending to work, so when I get home I’ll be glad to post the ingredients.
oomis1105:
“”Well apparently, the Gemora says there was more than one reason. Not sure why this got such a sarcastic reaction from you…”
Really? Maybe because I am tired of all the ills of Klal Yisroel continuously being attributed to something that WOMEN have done. Every bad thing that happens apparently is because of something women are or are not doing.”
First of all, nobody here made this up, it’s a Gemora. If you’re tired of the Gemora blaming women, take it up with Hashem, not us.
Second, precisely which “ills of Klal Yisroel” are “continuously being attributed to something that WOMEN have done”?
“Men need to take responsibility for their actions that are delaying Mashiach from coming.”
Agreed, but so do women. This isn’t a one-way street in either direction.
“The Gemarah clearly states that it was sinas chinam that was responsible for the Churban.”
The Gemora also apparently states that women wearing too much cosmetics was the reason for the Churban. You can’t pick and choose.
“To make a moral equivalency between the wearing of cosmetics by womem…”
The Gemora says the problem was women wearing too much cosmetics, not that women should never wear cosmetics at all.
“…with the extreme evil of sinas chinam, is unfair, to say the least.”
Are you calling the Gemora “unfair, to say the least”? If you have a problem with the Gemora, the problem is with you, not the Gemora.
“The many halachos we have referring to mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro would seem to validate the idea that He very much cares about people who are mean to each other”
And the many halachos about tzniyus would seem to validate the idea that He very much cares about how women dress. I’m not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive. And again, you can’t pick and choose.
SJSinNYC: No, I don’t either 🙂
Pascha –
“I’m at work too, part of my job is posting on YWN while pretending to listen to a lecture that is way too many hours long. At least the latter. :)”
LOL. I think we have a similar work ethic 😉
I dont have any clients coming in today so its all paper work thats going something like: E-file a petition, check YWN, E-file a petition, check YWN and repeat….
“A man can choose to focus on what he has to work on – ie, sinas chinam, shmiras einayim, limud Torah, chesed etc. You can also make sure your wife and children know what is right. Or, you can just say that women are to blame for Moshiach’s delay, and excuse yourself from any responsibility.”
Of course men must work on their stuff. As I said before, this isn’t a one-way street in either direction.
That said:
A woman can choose to focus on what she has to work on – ie, tzniyus, chinuch, shalom bayis, chesed etc. You can also make sure your husband and children are doing what is right. Or, you can just say that men are to blame for Moshiach’s delay, and excuse yourself from any responsibility. Again, this a two-way street.
“Chazal also say that women reflect men. It’s your responsibility to make sure that what we reflect is positive!! If you are the sun and we are the moon, who is to blame when the moon isn’t so lichtig?”
So now it’s our problem if you misbehave? Wow. And some complain everything is blamed on the women…
I’m not sure exactly what that chazal means (which shouldn’t come as a suprise seeing as I’ve never heard it before), but I highly doubt it means that women have no bechira. As such, women are just as responsible for their actions as men are for theirs.
i just like playing devil’s advocate. 🙂
And you do it SO well!!!! 🙂
Lipstick really is not the issue for me – it’s mroe a case of men (and maybe it was only one man, I don’t know Gemarah)whose opinion it is that women wear too much makeup. But to say the Beis Hamikdash was DESTROYED and we went into exile for that – well, I cannot accept that. If you want to say that women were not tzniusdig,there are many women who wear NO makeup at all who are extremely untzniusdig (ever hear of Woodstock???). I believe with all my heart that the RS”O wants us to follow His laws, to bring about a tikkun olam. I believe that so many of those laws specify actions between Man and Man, because those actions (and not which chassidishe shechitah you follow, or whether or not you wear a black hat, or if women wear cosmetics)are the ones which affect whether or not we are worthy to see Bayis Shlishi.
People on this forum may disagree with me, as is their right, but sof kol sof, the B”HM was destroyed PRIMARILY because of people’s unmenschlech interactions with each other. And for all the men who want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of women, perhaps they should look at themselves as well, and see who it is in the vast majority, who is cheating each other in business, cheating on their taxes. Probably not the women. OK, my rant is done. For now. 🙂
“But to say the Beis Hamikdash was DESTROYED and we went into exile for that – well, I cannot accept that.”
oomis, you are treading on very thin ice going against the Gemorah.
BTW, dresing with proper tznius IS a matter of mentchlichkeit and bein adom l’chaveiro. Think about that.
oomis1105:
“i just like playing devil’s advocate. 🙂
And you do it SO well!!!! :)”
Huh? Was that to me?
“to say the Beis Hamikdash was DESTROYED and we went into exile for that – well, I cannot accept that.”
I’m sorry: you “cannot accept” what an Amora said?! I’m sorry, I thought we were confining the parameters of this debate to those of the basic beliefs of Yiddishkeit.
“I believe with all my heart that the RS”O wants us to follow His laws, to bring about a tikkun olam.”
Yes, and many of those laws involve tzniyus. You still can’t pick and chose.
“And for all the men who want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of women,”
Huh? Who’s doing that? Care to name even one instance of this happening?
“perhaps they should look at themselves as well, and see who it is in the vast majority, who is cheating each other in business, cheating on their taxes. Probably not the women.”
Of course, women never do anything wrong. Only men. Got it. So the problem is that the men think it’s all the women’s fault, but really it’s all the men’s fault.
And to think I managed to type that with a straight face.
Perhaps certain women in this forum who “want to lay the tragedies of the world at the feet of men” should similarly look into the mirror and see if they’re quite so perfect themselves.
I am not going to get heavily involved in this conflict. All I can say is that when you quote plain text Gemara like that it usually isnt so simplistic. I am the furthest thing from a Talmudic scholar (if you knew me you would realize how truly funny I – in reference to myself – and Talmudic scholar truly was when placed in the same sentence) that being said I am quite sure there are Meforshim who expound on the statement of the BHMK being destroyed because of excessive cosmetics.
pascha bchochma:
“Absolutely it’s a two-way street. People implied that I am stopping Moshiach from coming by wearing makeup. Can you see why this would bother me?”
Of course I do. However, I still have the right to take issue with you claiming men are responsible for women’s mistakes.
“But I am bothered by the implications of this, not only on YWN, but from my male siblings who BH are good boys, encouraging an attitude of boys who just have to be “good enough” while women have to change and not focusing on working on themselves.”
Yes, we all know how girls are expected to learn for 9 hours a day from 11th or 12th grade until three or four years after high school, while boys spend maybe half that amount of time in school, both in hours per day and in total amount of years… oh wait! It’s the other way around! Silly me.
Seriously speaking, boys have things that they get pressured on too. Nobody got off easy in this world, as green as the grass on the other side may seem.
“*tries very hard to remain calm*”
I wish I was so successful 🙂
MW13-
“Yes, we all know how girls are expected to learn for 9 hours a day from 11th or 12th grade until three or four years after high school, while boys spend maybe half that amount of time in school, both in hours per day and in total amount of years… oh wait! It’s the other way around! Silly me.”
I actually agree with you on this. I think there is a greater pressure on boys to be “good”. What constitutes a “good” boy? Someone who is learning. The Irony of it is that the guys who I have dated that weren’t learning (full time/ long term that is) by in large far surpassed the “good” boys in Middos.
(p.s. I think you coulve made the same point without being condescending)
Sacrilege: I’m glad you agree. That said, there’s plenty of good reasons guys should be learning.
“I think you coulve made the same point without being condescending”
Yeah, I probably could’ve, but it comes across much better this way.
mw13 – clearly Tikkun Hamiddos isn’t one of them.
Two can play this game.
Sacrilege: Never said it was. And I’m not entirely sure what “game” you’re referring to.
On re-reading my previous comment, I realized that Sacrilege was right, I was overly condensing. pascha bchochma, I apologize.
“What about Shabbos makeup – does anyone use that?”
I happen to use the blush from reflections, and so far no complaints. You just have to make sure your face doesn’t have any residue from any other makeup as well as the brush that you use to apply it.
mw13 – now that your playing nice no need for any other games 😉
Some people, like myself, MUST wear makeup at all times and will not leave their homes without light makeup. That is because our skin is really not so great.
This type of makeup is absolutely not attractive, it just looks very natural and makes me look plain sweet!
If you’re wearing heavy makeup, especially eye makeup, then it is a problem.
This past yom tov I had my eyes professionally done. It was very thick the first day but by the third day it still looked great I did get a lot of compliments and I had to explain to some people that I did not put on makeup on yom tov. For foundation and blush I did it myself and just put on a few layers and I bought lipstick that stays on for a few days. I did have to be careful eating and I slept sitting up with several pillows but by the third day it still looked good and yes by the end of yom tov I couldnt wait to scrub my face but I would do it again.
Only for you Pascha –
SD Alchahol 40B, Purified Water, Butylene Glycol, Methyl Perfluorobutyl Etllyl, Acrylates/Outacrylamide, Copolymer, Lavandula Angustifollia Lavender Extract, Aloe Barbadensis Gel (Aloe Vera) Biosaccheride Gum-1, Polysorbate 20, Propylapaarben, Methylaparaben.
Personally, I think the purified water makes all the difference 😉
Even married woman shouldnt wear make up all the time for her husband alone. We see that takanos were made so that men shouldnt be always aitzel neshosaihem ketarnegol. Once in a while is one thing but not all the time – even just for her husband.
Pascha – Its funny that you mentioned the one for sensitive skin. The Model In A Bodel comes in a feew formulas, I bought for sensitive skin just because I always feel if you have that option it is always the best, but that is the one I typed it off of.
“Huh? Who’s doing that? Care to name even one instance of this happening?”
Excuse me, have you even been reading the posts in the CR? Virtually every five minutes someone else is blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel. We were even quoted the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.
MW13 would like me to take this issue up with Hashem. Did Hashem say it was because of women’s excessive cosmetics that He was destroying the B”HM? If so, show me the EXACT source that says ther nevuah that these were HIS words and not conjecture on the part of someone who felt women wore too much makeup, and please direct me to all the miforshim on the subject, and I will not say another word.
oomis – you’re rejection of the Gemorah (stating excessive cosmetics caused the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash) has crossed the line into apikorsus.
Pascha – My pleasure!
oomis/mw13/whoever – I actually do remember that when that whole “sheitel scandal” happened with the Indian hair, it was right before the Torah U’mesorah Convention and since I have a parent in Chinuch, I heard that the majority of the speeches where about how this is happening due to the lack of tznius on the part of woman…. It happens to be whenever a tzara befalls Klal Yisroel IT IS blamed on women. Normally I dont have a problem with it, I have long accepted that we are the lesser sex (believe me in my profession, I hear it non-stop) just dont deny it when it is brought to ahead.
pascha bchochma:
“Just to clarify: the sun / moon comment was said tongue in cheek.”
Well that explains a lot.
“Zeh l’umas zeh, I figured that if you can blame me with cherry-picked chazals for the evils of the world.”
Whoa. I’m not blaming women “for the evils of the world”: the Churban happened for a number reasons, caused by all different people. I was trying to point out that if one of those causes was women using too much cosmetics, it certainly shows that this should not be taken lightly.
“Yes, we all know how girls are expected to somehow be a mother, wife, and hard worker who earns enough to support a family, unless lucky enough to have rich parents…”
As I said before, nobody got off easy in this world.
“I guess my point here is that we should each work on our own nisyonos, instead of trying to tell others what they think they should be doing.”
I disagree. I think this whole “mind your own business” attitude is solely from the western culture, and foreign to Yiddishkeit. And besides, it may be enlightening to hear about things we struggle with from people without negius on the subject.
“it was inappropriate for the men in this thread to tell us that wearing our (tzanua and tasteful) makeup is what’s preventing the geulah, just as it would be inappropriate for us to tell the males on this site that their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming.”
First of all, nobody ever said wearing “tzanua and tasteful makeup is what’s preventing the geulah”. That was specifically said about excessive makeup.
Second, what’s inappropriate about saying “the males on this site… their spending time in the coffee room (both irl and here) is preventing Moshiach from coming” (assuming you can prove it)? The truth is the truth, no matter who’s mouth it comes from.
oomis1105:
“Excuse me, have you even been reading the posts in the CR? Virtually every five minutes someone else is blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel. We were even quoted the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.”
I was referring to a comment that blames women for something without having a source for it. Come on, if they’re posted “virtually every five minutes” it should be a walk in the park to quote me quite a few comments “blaming women’s lack of tznius for every evil that befalls klal Yisroel”.
“the Gemarah that women’s excessive use of cosmetics (and not only, as I was taught all my life, sinas chinam) was responsible for the CHURBAN.”
Yes, you should take up your lack of education with the school you went to. After all, don’t you just hate it when people cherry pick Gemoras?
“MW13 would like me to take this issue up with Hashem. Did Hashem say it was because of women’s excessive cosmetics that He was destroying the B”HM? If so, show me the EXACT source that says ther nevuah that these were HIS words and not conjecture on the part of someone who felt women wore too much makeup, and please direct me to all the miforshim on the subject, and I will not say another word.”
I find it highly disturbing that you demand a source in nevuah for everything. The Gemora clearly states why Hashem destroyed the Bais Hamikdash – why isn’t that good enough for you? Do you not believe the Gemora?
And how dare you accuse an Amora of saying this just because he “felt women wore too much makeup”?! Are you insinuating an Amora made up a reason that Bais Hamikdash was destroyed just to further his own agenda? Do you have no respect?
If you cannot or will not accept a clear statement from the Gemora, this discussion is pointless. I cannot prove a mathematical theory to you if you insist that one plus one is not two.
Sacrilege:
“I actually do remember that when that whole “sheitel scandal” happened with the Indian hair, it was right before the Torah U’mesorah Convention and since I have a parent in Chinuch, I heard that the majority of the speeches where about how this is happening due to the lack of tznius on the part of woman….”
Well considering that women are about 50% of Klal Yisroel it makes sense that sometimes things are their fault, no? Especially when the tzara particularly affects them, as was the case with the “sheitel scandal”. (Although I suppose one could argue that it actually affects the women’s husbands more… ;))
“It happens to be whenever a tzara befalls Klal Yisroel IT IS blamed on women. Normally I dont have a problem with it, I have long accepted that we are the lesser sex (believe me in my profession, I hear it non-stop) just dont deny it when it is brought to ahead.”
In what way do people imply women “are the lesser sex”? I’m not denying they do, seeing as I’m not in chinuch and I have no way of knowing, just curious.
mw13 – oh dont get me wrong, I am the biggest anti-feminist/sexist around I just dont particularly enjoy being blamed for the worlds ills 😉
But come on, when was the last time there was an asifa lambasting men for coming late/talking in shul or bittul torah/zman or going places they shouldnt. Um, rarely. If ever.
Each time something happens its TZNIUS TZNIUS TZNIUS. Which is fine, a little annoying though. And thats prob why most girls just tune it out.
To make up for a three-day Yom Tov try a one-day fast.
Several people did so following Rosh Hashana.
“In what way do people imply women “are the lesser sex”? I’m not denying they do, seeing as I’m not in chinuch and I have no way of knowing”
Did you think I was in chinuch? L-rd have mercy on the children!
I’m not. I’m in the heavily male popolated profession known as Law.
I have a parent in Chinuch.
Sacrilege:
“I just dont particularly enjoy being blamed for the worlds ills ;)”
Very few people do.
“But come on, when was the last time there was an asifa lambasting men for coming late/talking in shul or bittul torah/zman or going places they shouldnt.”
I don’t know, I don’t keep up with asifos. That said, talking in shul does get a fair amount of attention, as it should.
“Did you think I was in chinuch? L-rd have mercy on the children!
I’m not. I’m in the heavily male popolated profession known as Law. I have a parent in Chinuch.”
Sorry, I sort of skimmed through that part of your comment and just picked up the word “chinuch”. My bad.
However, if you are in law I’m really suprised you get the feeling men around you think their superior. I always thought of Law as dominated by intelligent, forward-thinking people…
Not a feeling.
We elected an extremely underqualified Afro-American before a brilliant extremely qualified woman.
a brilliant extremely qualified woman
The Witch possessed none of those attributes.
That just shows that the black minority card trumps the woman minority card, not that your coworkers are sexist.
I dont take issue with you calling her a witch.
The fact that she is brilliant is indesputable.
And she was very qualified.
Or maybe we should compare her to our current President. Got into College because of Affirmitive Action. “But he was the Harvard Law Review Editor” he never wrote a single article. He had no credentials.
Really? do you think there are more Blacks or Woman in America?
Its fime with me tho, I didnt want either of them. Besides, I still have a shot of being the first female President 😉
Oh, and my Co-Workers aren’t sexist, they are awesome, especially since I am the only female at the firm.
My friend was once at a closing and the other attorney said to her “They sent the Secretary?” so she says “No, I’m the Attorney.” So he says, “You passed the Bar?!”
“Oomis, it says so in Yeshaya Perek Gimmel,”
Thanks vey much, I will try to look it up ASAP. And to the person who basically called me an Apikorus…boy, do you not know me.
“I find it highly disturbing that you demand a source in nevuah for everything. The Gemora clearly states why Hashem destroyed the Bais Hamikdash – why isn’t that good enough for you? Do you not believe the Gemora?”
Why do you find it so disturbing that when a comment is made such as why the churban happened for a reason other than what I was taught my entire life (and it sounds like a comment made by someone who does not like women too much), that I would ask for a verifiable written source that I can ask my Rov about?
Does the Gemarah al Pi Hashem state the cosmetics issue as the reason, or was it the opinion of an Amora? There is a difference between saying Hashem said so, and a flesh and blood person THINKING it so. If you do not see the difference between the two concepts, there mamesh can be no honest dialogue here with you. I merely want to know if these are Hashem’s actual Words to us.
Don’t you think it is relevant, when 50% of the Jewish population is being accused that their actions of putting on makeup are so heinous so as to warrant the destruction of the Holy Temple? Don’t you also think that if this is in fact true (and I take your word for it that it is in the Gemarah, just like the story of Kimchis, btw, which is not halacha), that with ALL the tznius things that girls are being taught in BY, that they might have wanted to impress this notion on the girls, as well, so as to prevent them from using excessive cosmetics and bringing about more tzoros upon us? Please.
Instead of people reacting hysterically, why don’t they try being a little objective, and understanding what the question is, instead of accusing people of being chutzpahdig, apikorsim, ignorant, whatever it is that they think them to be, just because they ask a simple question. If I were not a frum woman, this would have possibly totally turned me off. If you are going to make statements that put women in a really bad light, then you SHOULD have the sources at hand that prove these are Hashem’s words. Amoraim and Tanaim disagree with each other all throughout the Gemarah.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.