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I would like to make a machoah for Kovod HaTorah against Joseph Lieberman’s support of toeiva in the military and Sheldon Silver’s support for toeiva marriage. They claim to be religious Jews and they disgrace Judaism with their public support of this terrible thing. I protest.
Support for toeiva? Allowing people to serve in the army is hardly the same as supporting their behavior.
We don’t support people living with a woman who they are not married to either, but we don’t kick them out of the army.
Good point Sam. I back you.
No, it is not. That does not come from the torah, it is just homophobia, which is usually felt by people who are afraid that they are homosexual themselves.
Where does it say that if you have an employee who is gay you need to fire him?
Where does it say you need to kick him out of the army?
Where does it say you need to hate him? Chataim v’lo chot’im- Buddy.
All you have shown is that it is an aveira to engage in the act, even a serious one.
Do you fire your Jewish employees if they don’t keep shabbos? Do you hate them?
Would you fire someone and kick them out of the army if they were married to their mother-in-law’s mother? (Also one of the arayos- eim chamoso)
popa is right.
The IDF has openly Gay men and women serving, as do most of our NATO allies — with no problems. If NATO ever mobilizes, American servicemen will be taking orders from Gay NATO officers.
Sam I Am, I agree about the marriage, not about the military.
All people have urges to do things they’re not supposed to. There is nothing wrong with having the urge for the same gender, the problem is acting on it. Legalizing gay marriage would say the ACTIONS are ok, which is wrong. Allowing them in the military doesn’t say anything about the actions.
Charlie: I thought we’d agree on this one. You like my point about the eim chamoso?
I once said it to one of my rebbeim, and he disagreed partially. He seemed to be saying it is worse than eim chamoso, I think because it is an unnatural desire and a breakdown of the pattern of society. But, he was certainly advocating that we accept them as people and not hate or be disgusted by them.
It uses the word toevah about non-kosher food, as well.
It is somewhat ludicrous for somebody without the nisayon who gets no schar for it to focus his energies criticizing people who do have the nisayon. What a waste of energy. When I get upstairs, they will not give me one iota of schar for this mitzva since I was fortunate not to have any tayva for it. I can’t put myself in the shoes of somebody who does. Halevai I should focus my energies in controlling myself regarding things I do have a tayva for.
As far as Reb Moshe’s tshuva, it is very shver, since it seems to contradict the metzius. Reb Moshe claims that gays are regular people who adopted this tayva because it is extreme, and the only pleasure is that since it is wrong, it is exciting. But clearly the metzius is that gays have no tayva for women, and only a tayva for men. They didn’t decide to develop this tayva for the sake of doing extreme aveiros. They were simply born with it in place of the normal tayva for the opposite gender.
As far as the military goes, I have some questions whether it is wise to take gays in, since it makes their straight bunkmates uncomfortable. Just like the military would not advocate men and women sharing barracks, there may be an issue here as well. It may also be a battle-readiness issue, if there is improper behavior taking place when the soldiers are supposed to be getting a good night’s rest. But these are practical issues, not religious ones.
Oh yes. Just for the record, I support “don’t ask, don’t tell”, but for practical reasons, not homophobic ones.
Sam I am, alias, etc.
One day you will talk about this to someone you respect and discover a whole new world.
Until then,
Popa
I bet you have not spoken to him about this.
Yum:
Juicy Lashon Hara.
And yes, it makes me in the mood for a steak.
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