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shalom in Israel: “where does it say in halacha that women can walk around with skirts that barely (if that) skim the knees.”
I’ve asked numerous people numerous times, and never received a response: where does it say in halacha that women must cover their knees and elbows? Don’t tell me some book on tznius that was written a few years ago. Tell me Shulchan Oruch, Mishnah Brurah, etc. In short, where do the books coming out now get their halachos from?
People love to bash anyone who does something a little more meikil than them. This is a way bigger problem than elbows, knees and lycra.
JFem, I just went to the Bnos melachim presentation and Rabbi Forcheimer of Lakewood spoke about these shirts. He didn’t say the shirts, or even the sleeves are problematic but focused on how if the top layer isn’t loose then the body shaping is a problem, so baruch shekivant 😉
Re Feif Un: the rav also referred to the gemara (I think) that mentions the obligation to cover the shok. He didn’t speak about elbows but did talk about the need to cover the entire kneecap, and the advisability (actually, he calls it a halachic obligation) to wear skirts longer than that while standing.
Mandy, I agree. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t address the other issues.
And on the way home I was talking to my kids, saying how grateful I am because they could so easily become fashion victims like this kid down the street (not Jewish) who went wild in her tweens. I didn’t want to talk about specific people but mentioned a neighbor who doesn’t cover her hair yet is very tzniusdik – she is so unpretentious and simple. I was so proud of my kids for “getting it”, and understanding how much tznius is also an attitude, and how they don’t need to look down on others who don’t follow what has become normative (hair, knees, elbows, collarbone).
I remember this thread…I guess I’m an old timer here…
CNP, I actually think that wearing a long sleeve shirt under, say, a short sleeve dress helps people dress more tzniut…if short sleeves are no good, then why won’t long sleeves be no good too? these are the things that confuse me about tzniut.
tzippi I am very disturbed by what you said: “the need to cover the entire kneecap, and the advisability (actually, he calls it a halachic obligation) to wear skirts longer than that while standing.”
Actually it is required to be covered while sitting too (or any normal position). This is a terrible machla today that so many people forget.
A womens clothing store in Flatbush was “forced” by community presure to dress their window display mannequins in a Tsniusdig manner. It was appaling that a frum owned store, catering to frum people displayed mannequins in its window, in skirts that clearly did not cover the knee (no part of it) and short sleeve shirts (not even close to the elbow). I am not suggesting that hilchos Tsnius applies to mannequins, rather it was the message the store was implying that riled up many women.
CNP, just for the record, short sleeve shirts worn over a long sleeve shirt, are NOTHING NEW. Over 30 years ago it was a style to dress that way and NOT ONE ROV (to the best of my knowledge, becuase it would have been as publicized as it is today)said boo about it. Frum Bais Yaakov girls were wearing it, Satmar girls (I worked with several) were wearing it, and so was I. It is beyond hypocrisy that this has become an issue (only exception that I can understand is the flesh colored long sleeve, because of the illusion of a short sleeve being worn. Then again, Would you feel the same way about girls wearing jumpers with blouses (I mean, those are sleeveless altogether, without the blouse)). I can see a legitimate argument made for skintight clothing not being tniusdik. But if the shape of that same shirt could otherwise be considered tzniusdik, then there should be no problem whatsoever in their being worn with a long sleeve shirt underneath. It is simply not logical to feel otherwise.
I don’t mean to stick my nose in here, but…
“Frum Bais Yaakov girls were wearing it, Satmar girls (I worked with several) were wearing it, and so was I”
Why is “everybody else wore it” a valid argument? And- why is a Satmar girl a reiyah? Don’t be a fool
If frum women wore burkas, you could be sure the “style” would have become one where the burkas came in many colors, were form fitting and perhaps even sleeveless “models” that were worn with lycra shirts to cover the arms.
Re chaverim: sorry I wasn’t clear. He made it clear that the whole kneecap should be covered at ALL times, therefore skirts should be longer than the bottom of the knee to enable this.
And for the record, I have no problem with the two shirt look. I think it’s cute. I guess it’s because you can’t wear too full a shirt as the bottom layer but there are somewhat tighter sleeved shirts that aren’t too tight either.
if a women wears tights let say black tights is it still a problem if the skirt wouldnt cover the knee at some position?
moti- no. What does one have to do with the next?
oy! ames thanks for correcting me- I meant that no, it’s not allowed, one does not replace the other
moti, of course it is a problem.
“Why is “everybody else wore it” a valid argument? And- why is a Satmar girl a reiyah? Don’t be a fool”
Areivim, you entirely missed my point, it’s quite obvious. I was stating that 30 years ago this fashion was a style worn by the frummest of the frum, and THERE WAS NO TZNIUS OUTCRY by any rabbonim at that time, so clearly they did not feel it was an issue, though they talked about skirt lengths and colors. That was the identical style that is being worn today and is now decried as being not tzniusdik. Are the rabbonim smarter today or have better vision?
BTW, I do take exception to being called a fool for expressing an opinion based in fact.
Please forgive me oomis. The only people I would bother saying “don’t be a fool” to are those that are clearly not.
Next: I didn’t miss your point, I extracted one point out of the big picture to show my own view. You say the frummest of the frum were wearing it? All I have to say is…. don’t be a fool. Bais Yaakov doesn’t equal frum, Satmar doesn’t equal frum etc. They each have every type within their ranks. This being said, you can’t just follow the crowd. And what “everyone else does” is not what makes it correct.
I’m not saying anything about chachomim now or then- I was just bringing out a general point I feel strongly about (applies accross the board)
(i am asking for someone else) can you please tell what(if) the problems with short sleeves over long sleeves are? why dont some people wear it? what is it a hock? why is it diff then wearing a v neck shirt with a shell under it? please answer!!! i am with my friend right now, and she wants answers….thanks
ok i am talking to the people who think there is something wrong with it(those are prob not the people on line lol)
coke: i don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. i just don’t especially like the message it sends, same way i avoid wearing brand names even if they weren’t expensive. just my opinion though, i don’t think anyone else needs to change to do stuff my way.
CNP- shalom in Israel posted this earlier:
“Coke not Pespi – the look is horrible – kind of like someone is trying to not look frum so is doing a b’di eved.”
I wouldn’t say it’s horrible- I can think of worse. But it does look like a b’di eved. It’s not refined
aob, I’m with you about the short sleeves. don’t like it, don’t wear it.
~a~
ok i also dont like it and dont wear it… WHY dont you like it??
coke: why don’t you? or did you just decide that now…? 😉
i never wore it–i don’t like the look…i also have no interest, my problem is that i am not really sure why i don’t, and i want to hear why others don’t, so maybe 1 idea will click in my head and i will realize that is why i haven’t been wearing it
coke: ok, i get it. are we talking about short sleeve over long sleeve here or spaghetti strap dresses over long sleeve? because i have a different reason for each.
to everyone who doesnt wear short over long, do you wear shabbos clothing with cap sleeves? thats about all you could find unless its a jumper…
This post is added to my log of community service.
~a~
kapusta: yeah it’s hard to find clothes but not especially cuz of that. anyway, it’s not as if i NEVER would wear anything like that, i just don’t particularly like the look so i mostly avoid it.
i am talking about short over long
AOB, I avoid the actual look, but its possible to get away on a “by-look” on shabbos(cant think of a better way to explain it.) Weekday clothing is mostly that look.
“Please forgive me oomis. The only people I would bother saying “don’t be a fool” to are those that are clearly not.”
I wasn’t really angry, and I am moichel your words. I hear your point, but at the end of the day, the fact is that no rabbonim of the last three decades entertained the notion that this fashion style was untzniusdik then, so it makes no sense that they have jumped on some sort of tznius bandwagon, and suddenly came to that conclusion. It was a very prevalent style in those years for quite a while, and as I said the frummest girls with whom I worked ALL dressed that way, and they were incredibly makpid on their tznius.
The fact that daas Torah did not at all take issue with the style then, suggests to me that those who do so now are taking it a little too extremely. As a rule, I do not believe that because “everyone does something” that makes it kosher. But neither do I believe that just because someone feels a certain way about something today, that it necessarily means that person is correct.
kapusta, I know what you mean. Some stuff have capsleeves without having “that look.”
~a~
Hi Oomis, I’ve been told a lot of things changed in the last thirty years.
Jewess, what specifically changed that makes short sleeves over long sleeves a problem now when it didn’t raise any eyebrows thirty years ago?
Jewishfeminist02, 30 years ago lycra wasn’t the vogue for a start. Now it’s hard to find any clothes that don’t literally stick to the figure.
So the style should be banned simply because it is “in vogue”? Why is the same style of clothing okay when it’s not fashionable and untzniusdik when it is fashionable? If anything, I would think the opposite- when something is trendy, everyone is wearing it, whereas a woman would stick out more if she were wearing something unpopular.
JF02, I have no problem with any sleeves, long or short. I was just saying that things have changed in the last thirty years. I think that orthodox Jews are going more right wing. It doesn’t mean that the rules they make now, are God’s law. It just means that with change, the ideas of what is kosher and what is not, in terms of dress, will change too.
AOB, I avoid the actual look, but its possible to get away on a “by-look” on shabbos(cant think of a better way to explain it.) Weekday clothing is mostly that look.
kapusta: what’s “by-look”, is that supposed to be capital (BY?)? i’m a little confused, what do you mean?
hard to explain, an almost cap sleeve look but not exactly…
kapusta: ok then, i’m gonna go find a translator if you don’t mind
anonymisss?! you seem to get it, do you think you could explain to me what kapusta’s talking about?
i happen to think there’s nothing wrong with this look- tznuis wise,but sometimes it just looks really funny. i started seeing people wear tank tops with long sleeves under, it looks so weird- it’s not meant to be worn like that. people have to face the fact that you can’t wear these things because we’re jewish, and don’t try to make it tznius because the person just ends up looking really funny.
Whether or not Orthodox Jews are going more right wing, that does not change the emes of the halacha. Either something is assur or it is not. either the rabbonim have always regarded something as not tzanua, or they have not. In the case of this fashion style, whioch goes back over thirty years or so, NO rov ever had anything negative to say about the look when it first came on the scene. They were very vocal about skirt and sleeve lengths, but apparently saw nothing untzniusdik about this look. The fact that some people are making an issue of it now, does not make their assessment any more choshuv than that of the rabbonim 30 years ago. Those rabbonim had eyes, too, and they saw what we all saw.
Not liking the style – that is a matter of personal preference. But it has nothing to do with tznius. You don’t like the look, don’t wear it. I don’t like the look of bubble skirts. To each her own.
oomis, maybe the clothes are tighter this time around.
I was just discussing this issue with my wife who laughed and said that 15 years ago, here in Israel, the issues were denim skirts and sneakers. As she said – she WISHES they were the issues today. I travel to work by bus from KIRYAT SEFER – a “hareidi stronghold”, and some of the women who get on the bus make even me – a fervent “anti-back door for women” supporter, wish that I didn’t have to notice them.
Not from what I have observed, mw13, and from what I remember wearing. It was all stretchy material just as it is now. Look, we can all debate this issue until heint biz morgen, as they say, and at the end of the day it still is an issue that never was an issue the first time around. Our Gedolim then did not deem this to be a matter of tznius, and that is good enough for me. I had some acquaintances who wore very tight clothing. It was very obvious that they were not doing the right thing. But the shirt issue is really foolish to make as a cause celebre, especially in view of the fact that the shirt worn OVER the long sleeve shirt, is NOT tight.
oomis I agree with you people make issues out of the stupidest things. I can tell you about some of the clothing I see (some of it looks ridiculous, forget about not tznius for now)This should not be considered an issue in tznius when there are so many other real issues to worry about.
Areivim: the gemara itself says that if you want to know the halacha, go see what the people are doing. The best rayah is to see what knowledgeable and shomrei mitzvos do and that is considered stronger than even a halachic proof. Bmakom shlacha refuyah byadcha pok chazi mai ama dvar. Also, ein lmeidin mhalcha vlo mehalacha lmayseh ella mimaaseh.
ShalominIsrael: The fact that anybody made an issue over denim skirts and sneakers which are absolutely 100% kosher halachically, and worn by the dati leumi crowd seems to indicate that some people have hijacked tznius for political ends. They are really not discussing halacha when they talk about tznius. They are really talking about how can we be sure nobody identifies us with “that other” crowd, because we are “better”.
This is the polar opposite of tznius.
One other point, obviously there is nothing wrong with short sleeves over long sleeves, and the whole discussion is pretty silly. Even the issue of tightness is not so clear to me. Could somebody knowledgeable here provide a primary source that tightness is a factor in tznius? I mean a gemara or chazal, or even a secondary source, such as a rishon, or even up till the shulchan oruch or the nosei keilim.
I believe that in older times, heavier was considered more attractive than skinny, and for them tightness would even have been a negative factor in one’s appearance, and not a cause for attention. (Don’t all the older statues and paintings depict heavy-set women? Any art experts out there?) But at any rate, please provide a source for tightness.
PY, tight, form fitting clothes aren’t tznius. Even the kohanim wore robes so as not to outline their legs up and down the ramp to the mizbeach; maybe a kal v’chomer for women, all the time, could be applied. From what I’ve heard though, the arms aren’t problematic, as would be a tight top as the primary layer.
I assume (perhaps I should not – in the immortal words of Felix Ungar, when you assume you make a “beast of burden” out of you and me) that wearing form flattering tight clothes is meant as a way to attract attention to ones figure. If that assumption is correct it is a direct contradiciton of “hatzea leches….”.
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