Lubavitch Hats

“I would think/hope also that would be the reaction of any never married man, besides Joseph I suppose”

CS,

Are you insinuating that Joseph has never been married? How can that be if he claimed on another thread that he has 3 wives and 27 children?

Neville, ChabadShlucha, laskern: Are you saying that we don’t follow the Halacha from the aforementioned Shulchan Aruch? That’s how we’ve practiced life since Avrohom Avinu, when Sarah stayed in the tent when the visitors came, through Chazal through the Mechaber and beyond. If things are different now they became so only relatively recently and are only a b’dieved bshas hahchak, unfortunately due to yeridos hadoros. Ideally we should all return to the way things were and should be.

I will repeat again. The Aruch Hashulchan 75:7 brings the Mordechai in the name of the Ravyeh that we rely on. Women go out to the street , for the reasons mentioned above, seeing them makes us get used to them and we don’t get affected like we find dancing with them was considered עץ בעלמא. For this reason no mechitza is necessary at a family dinner.

CS, I think you meant to say Sarah by Pharaoh also Sarah by Avimelech, Rivkah by Avimelech and Dinah by Schechem.

Promiscuity has certainly increased since the time of the Mechaber, most unfortunately. This is certainly a bad thing. Historical kidnapping of women has nothing to do with anything mentioned. But anyone paying attention to the news even just over the last 11 months regarding contemporary mistreatment of women, knows that society in 2018 is extremely horrible in this regard. This is a direct result of the mixing of the genders at work, at school (even New York City public schools were gender segregated to some extent at one point) and in the street. Yes, women remaining at home like Sarah Imainu and as paskened by everyone before and after Chazal through Shulchan Aruch and later were absolutely 100% Torah correct and humanely correct based on normal and proper gender segregation norms. What we have today is a travesty, not better than the past, and far from the ideal. The ideal is what the Torah, Chazal and the poskim rule, as I earlier cited.

The Aruch Hashulchan decries the phenomenon with women you described. He writes that since it became so bad, therefore it is permissible to say Shema in their presence.

Joseph yes since the mechaber modesty has decreased. That has to do more with the mingling of women and men and the lack of importance placed on dressing and acting modestly and yes that should change. But women being treated as human beings and as equal members of society is a good thing.

Also another way the world has changed for the better is that we now have many machines that do menial work. This has made a huge difference in everyone’s quality of life. In the mechabers time, it was normal for men to be away from home for months at a time working morning to night. For women this has made a massive difference to their workload.

Laundry machines, fridges and freezers (no need to shop everyday and cook from scratch) dishwashers save hours of time. In the past, since there was enough work to keep a woman busy at home from morning to night, it would give her a bad reputation if she was seen outside, without good reason for hours everyday.

Nowadays we also have Torah education for all boys and girls as well and women have time to become knowledgeable in Torah themselves which was mostly unthinkable throughout history.

Historically women have always been encouraged to leave the home for good reasons among them : taking / accompanying their children / husbands to and from school / beis midrash (mentioned in Rambam and gemara), working so their husbands can learn / to help out with parnassa (the maharals wife was a shopkeeper), simchos or other social events (mentioned by the Rambam as one of the needs a husband must allow his wife to leave the house for.

Just now more women are able to do more of that on a day to day basis. And women actually have time to smile at their kids as they play with them in the park.

The Rambam mentions that even if a woman can hire out all her work because her husband is wealthy she should not sit idle all day as it is bad for her character. Today when women have many hours a week they could spare from house work, there certainly is no inyan to sitting in the house staring at the wall.

Rather they take part in more of the above more often.

So tznius of course applues nowadays just the discussion is about WHERE she goes, WHO and HOW she talks to people, WHAT environment she works in etc instead of how often she leaves the house

I think any sane pertain is thrilled with these modern inventions that free up so much time to devote to better things and would not advocate returning to a time where you had to work day and night – men outside the house, women in the house just for survival.

Neville so comment about the hats. Seems like they’re all covered.

Although if you really have nostalgia for the past Joseph as opposed to the majority of us who are grateful for the new reality we live in, all is not lost.
You can join lev tahor or move to Iran where you may even be able to marry 3 wives. And they only leave the house in a burka. Just keep in mind before you make your choice that your wife will only wear black shapeless clothes. If that’s what you want then by all means go ahead

Neville, just FTR, I considered your point but don’t agree with it. I appreciated your concern. But the thread would’ve been historical already if not for the tangential OT sub-discussion. Only because of that has this thread remained active. You or anyone are still always able to bring it back on topic, should anyone so care; indeed, the fact that the thread is still active makes that more likely to occur than if it had already been buried and remained deep down and unseen.

CS & laskern, you’re entirely incorrect. I have the Torah, Chazal and literally all the poskim on my side (as demonstrated and cited) whereas you only have your boich svaras on why things are or should be different and changed today than all of Jewish history from Avrohom Avinu until relatively very recently.

Was in williamsburg last night, street was teeming with people. someone should quickly tell the neighborhood poskim that females of all ages were walking outside on bedford avenue. tell them quickly, so they can hang the kol korehs before shabbos.

Neville apparently you didn’t understand the nuance
in what I was saying. At least I think so otherwise I don’t understand your post. I guess you’re thinking that if I admit that society is less modest/ moral today than in the time of the mechaber, then that means egalitarian society =immorality which means that Joseph is right.

But it doesn’t. The same way male dominated society doesn’t equal modesty (as seen from the ancient Egyptians, babylonians, Romans etc) egalitarian society does not automatically equal immorality and immodesty.

We see this very well in the frum community where women freely go out, but don’t have long chatty conversations with men in the street and certainly don’t attend mixed parties etc. There are mens events and women’s concerts and events, there are shabbos tables where both sit together. There is a Yeshiva I know where there is a woman’s office for the women who work there. There are women’s businesses and there are frum midwives and nurses who work
in regular hospitals. Where exactly to draw the boundaries is subject to the decisions of contemporary poskim who unilaterally agree on some things (like men not attending a womens show) and some things where they disagree (like whether to use girls voices in videos – not singing.) but egalitarian society can definitely work very well with modesty- and no one considers a woman leaving the house every day in this society, immodest

Joseph, now I get why people call you a troll. You somehow manage to fardrei all discussions into arguments of why “according to the Torah” women are subservient to men, why women should stay in their homes” and other such Muslim practices. You shlep together sources thinking you are smarter than all Chassisha, Litvisha and Sephardishe gedolim who pasken differently than the greatest posek ever alive “Jospeh in the YWN Coffeeroom”.

So either you are a troll and are just pretending to really believe in these ideas, or you are simply farikt. If you really believe in these ideas you need to join Lev Tahor ( who knows where they are now…) but they won’t let you have internet access. I can’t see you doing that. You’d rather women be deprived of their liberties than you of yours.

Here are some “Muslim” practices, according to your definition, that not a single posek in the history of Torah Judaism has ever disagreed with. Not any Chasidish Litvish or Sephardic:

Shulchan Aruch (EH 73:1): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside. A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…”

Kesef Mishneh: A wife must give straw to her husband’s animals, but she need not give water. This is because normally one leaves the house to go to the river or spring for this, and “Kol Kevudah…” (a woman should not go out…)

Rosh (Shevu’os 4:2): The Ri ha’Levi learns from our Gemara that we do not disgrace an honorable woman to go to Beis Din, due to “Kol Kevudah.” Rather, we send a Shali’ach of Beis Din to hear her claims. The Aruch and R. Chananel agree. The Ramban and Teshuvos of the Rif and Rav Sadya Gaon do not allow this. The Rif allows only that Beis Din send scribes to record her claim.

Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5): The Gemara (Nazir 12a) says that women are Kevu’os due to “Kol Kevudah.”

Gemara: Mo’avim are forbidden “Because they did not go out to greet you with bread and water.” This does not apply to women. It is normal for men to go out to greet, but not for women.
Objection (Do’eg): The men should have gone out to greet the men, and the women to greet the women!
Question: How can we answer?
Answer #1 (Chachamim of Bavel): “Kol Kevudah Vas Melech Penimah” (it is dishonorable for women to go outside, even to greet women).
Answer #2 (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): We learn this from ” … Where is your wife Sarah?” (It is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent.)
R. Shimon says, “Because they did not go out …” – it is the way of a man …

In any case i think I will now heed nevilles advice as it seems Joseph himself isn’t interested in discussion (as hasn’t responded to the points brought in response to him, just brings more sources to prove things that no halachic authority today endorses) and I mainly respond to these twisted posts to begin with to show that this is not Torah hashkafa for the sake of those people who may come across this and be misled / result in unnecessary chillul Hashem.

Joseph if you post these things just to troll and generate more posts for the coffee room please consider choosing a topic less likely to create a chillul Hashem.

Not a single posek in the universe disagrees with the quoted Shulchan Aruch or any of the other poskim cited.

I don’t know about the single poskim, but i know a lot of married ones who allow their wives to go out.

And nobody denied what it says in Rambam or Shulcan Aruch, yet you keep quoting them.

DY: Mesdames CS and Philosopher have said that the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam cited no longer apply in our 21st century day and age.

Philosopher: I absolutely said no such thing. I challenge you to quote any post of mine where I said that.

Anyway there is a Yerushalmi פיק חזי מה עמה דבר go and see how the people behave אע’פ שאינן נביאין אבל הן בת נביאין even though they are not prophets themselves but they descend from prophets.

“Not a single posek in the universe disagrees with the quoted Shulchan Aruch or any of the other poskim cited.”

Joseph,

Please enlighten our sinful generation as to how the females in your family of 3 wives and 27 children implement your interpretation of halacha. Do they leave the house to attend school, work or shul? Are they allowed to go shopping or visit friends? How frequently can they go out and do they wear burkas when doing so? Instead of always criticizing others for not maintaining your high standards, you should be discussing how to implement them. Unless of course you’re just a nasty troll.

Reb Shmuel Berenbaum related
A couple of members of lubavitch were passing through the town of Mir in Europe. In Der Mir, the practice was that students did not wear their tzitzis on the outside of their clothes. On of those fellows asked one of the Mir bochrim “where are your tzitzis?” He received the rejoinder “here we don’t wear tzitzis (at all)”
“Why not” was the query.
The immediate quip was Talmudic diction ” ‘k’dei shelo levayesh mi she’ain lo’
[ in order not to embarrass one who doesn’t have]”

postscript

What followed was a public condemnation of the Mir in chabad circles, circulating that the Mirrers do not wear tzitzis.
R’ Shmuel chuckled and said that already in Europe we had trouble from them.

Joseph, according to all shittas you are wasting your time in the CR instead of learning Torah every moment in your life.

You did mention that Sara Imeini stayed home all day and because of yeridas hadoros we women don’t stay home all day…

Now, since you are a big posek on women’s issues, while disregarding your obligations, according to all shittas, let’s hear how many times per month according to you the Rambam meant women can out.

DY,

Here’s one of many:

“CS – Aba Chilkiya’s wife stayed home the whole day. (The Gemorah mentions this when explaining why she gave more tzedaka than her husband.) Which, not so incidentally, aligns with the psak in both Shulchan Aruch and Rambam that a wife should not leave her home too much. Rambam specifies a specific limit on the number of times per month her husband should let her out whereas the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t put an actual number other than to pasken not to go out much.”

Joseph has repeatedly criticized our generation, calling what we have today a “travesty”, which no Posek or Rosh Yeshiva has done. Instead of finding fault with every single community, he should enlighten us as to how his own family lives up to his high standards. Otherwise, he simply enjoys criticizing other Jews for things he doesn’t keep, which is the textbook definition of a nasty troll.

BTW, the YWN moderators recently labeled Joseph as a troll and a stalker:

““Moderators Note: Not only is a he a troll on YWN in the comments section, but he a confirmed 100% real life stalker, who has stalked many people through YWN. And no, this is not a joke.”

I repeat again it is currently a bigger problem if they go out seldomly then frequently as I quoted from the MB 75 that what men are used to doesn’t affect them. At the time of the Rambam they dressed in burka like outfit so it did not make a difference and it was better going out seldomly.

Joseph, the reason the women are limited in their out going so that the men should not get attracted. If the women go outside in a tzuniesdig outfit, according the MB 75:2 mentioned above , the men will get used to them, as the men have their own reasons for being outside, and the women will not create an attraction. Reb Moshe says that even in a shul the mechitza is only for separation and not for protection of looking at the women. So currently when the women have reasons to go out, we allow them to do so because the men become used to it.

laskern: Do you agree that it is wrong for them to be out, such as שפּאַצירן or cavorting, when there’s really no justifiable reason to do so?

yes, but their is always a justifiable reason. They don’t go out for the fun of it.