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Chabad Shlucha:
“Sechel youre addressing from your perspective and circles and I’m addressing from the discussions I’ve heard between my father and brothers who were in Yeshiva and my husband and brother in law who is a shliach in Yeshiva… There is that way of thinking or all bochurim would just tuck in.”I’m not saying that all older Bochurim tuck in, many in fact don’t. What I’m saying is that most younger Bochurim don’t tuck in because they simply don’t care that much about their appearance. I used to only tuck in once a week – on Fridays during Mivtzoim. Now, I try to usually be tucked in whenever I go down the street, or outside of my dorm. I recall from my days in Zal (Yeshiva Gedolah, 17-20) we would laugh at the older Bochurim who were learning Smicha who were more often than not tucked in. Until I got to that stage myself, and began tucking in more frequently too.
Certain Mashpiim always are untucked and unkempt, that is not at all B’shittah, rather they are the kinds of people to whom Gashmiyus simply doesn’t matter, and they’re completely oblivious to it.
Regarding ties, no self respecting Bochur would ever wear a tie, save for 2 occasions, at a wedding (of a sibling) or while on Merkos Shlichus, and even then it’s not as frequent as in past years. Shluchim will almost always wear a tie on Shabbos, and many during the week as well.
I can count on one hand the amount of times I wore a tie during the past year, once at a wedding, another time on Pesach when making a Seder in a remote community.Agreed sechel. Your last post expresses the reality well. Good to hear from you again. Gutte voch!
about untucked shirts:
maybe maybe it comes from many older chasidim that had and have their talis koton untucked. beacause according to the alter rebbe the shiur required for a talis koton should be spread out and not folded or creased. thats why chabad wears a bendel on the talis koton to keep the talis koton spread out all day, but many of the older generation had their talis koton out for that reason so they can always make sure its spread out. so if their talis koton was out so obviously their shirt had to be out too.if they dont cut their beards al pi kabalah then they shouldnt cut their peyos for the same reason like some other chassidim?
Edy:
We don’t cut our beards for 2 reasons.
1. Halacha.
The Tzemach Tzedek considers it to be an Issur Deoraysa, for two reasons, a: השחתה (destroying the beard) b: לא ילבש גבר not dressing as a woman. The Minchas Elazar also holds it to be an Issur Deoraysa.
2. Kabbalah.
The beard is יג תיקוני דיקנא, corresponding to the Yud Gimmel Midos HaRachamim. The AriZal says that the beard should not be cut (excluding the mustache) for it draws down שפע and Brocha from above. The same AriZal that instructed not to cut the beard in the very same place instructs to cut the peyos short so they don’t mix with the beard.
-Taamei HaMitzvos, Kedoshim.Knaidelach:
I’ve heard that Svoroh once before, from a Litvishe Bochur actually, it sounds nice, but I don’t think it’s correct. Also, Tzitzis can stay perfectly straight tucked in as well.
Chabad Shlucha:
Thanks for the endorsement, it’s not often you agree with me:)
Sechel: You didn’t address Edy’s point. He made a point about the peyos (in comparison to the beard.)
See the Chasam Sofer about kabalah for cutting beards in O”CH 159.
Joseph, he addressed it directly. He demonstrated conclusively that Edy’s assumption is incorrect.
He does, Milhouse. I skimmed the comment too quickly. TY
sechel
i am sure that years ago wearing the talis katan out was a chesidishe thing. most wore the talis katan tucked in, only the more chesidishe wore the TK out.Knaidelach:
Indeed it seems many Chassidim did wear their Tallis Koton over their shirts, but all I’m saying is that a nice Svoroh isn’t necessarily the actual reason. It may very well be, but you haven’t brought anything convincing to make me believe it.To reiterate, I think that most Lubavitchers would recognize that due to our (perhaps subconscious) way of thinking, we in a way find a untucked shirt to be more in line with the “Tziyur” of a real Chassid from Lubavitch, or Nevel, or perhaps Dokshitz. It very much goes with the Kasket, and the “L’chatchila Ariber” attitude in which we pride ourselves. This may make no sense to many readers, but I think this expresses the unspoken feelings of many Chassidim. Perhaps another Lubavitcher can back me up here.
Knaidlach yes there is a description of the chassidishe farm settlement in the times of the Mitteler Rebbe (born 1773) proudly wearing their talis koton over their shirts as they worked.
The consensus on the untucked shirts is that it’s a bochur shtick which is given tacit encouragement (no one makes it a thing and tells them too that would defeat the purpose) by the fact that some older mashpiim also don’t tuck in…
And Im sure that even the Menahelim that give knasim for untucked shirts and tell the bochurim they need to look respectable, would prefer that this is the bochur shtick than taking it in the other direction, for example, not dancing with abandon on simchas Torah because they don’t want to scuff their shoes (There are many chassidishe stories scorning such behavior) or even worse caring about brand names etc.
Teenagers tend to take things to an extreme.when they grow up a bit, they get the fine lines. We’d all rather they overdo the not being into Gashmius than the opposite as that is the role of a bochur – to be fully mufshat
from Gashmius Olam hazeh and fully immersed in the Olam HaTorahDoes anyone else out there find it as amusing as I do that whenever a topic to do with Lubavich comes up the Lubavitchers online always end up saying, or at least intimating, how great they are, regardless of what the truth is?
As I’ve written in the past in other threads, I’ve been around Lubavicth circles for a long time and I know quite a bit from firsthand sources. The reason that it has become the trend for Lubavichers to wear their shirts out – it wasn’t always that way – is definitely because the Baal HaTanya holds that the beged has to be worn when it is an amah wide, regardless of how wide it is when pulled tight. I first heard this many many years ago from a mashpia in Morristown, and since then I have heard it from numerous mashpi’im in numerous cities all over the world.
It has nothing to do with the “tziyur of a real chassid…” or the lack of interest in gashmiyus and chitzoniyus, as mentioned by someone earlier. Go to Vizhnitz or Belz and look at the chnyuks there whose hats are bent out of shape, whose long jackets are torn, patched and stained, whose shoes are scuffed and worn down. They all have no interest in gashmiuys yet they all have their shirts tucked in.
And do those Lubavichers who “aren’t interested in gashmiyus” ever forget to put on their pants or their socks. Rather it is an image they try to cultivate, and they certainly have their own colleagues fooled into believing that they don’t care about gashmiyus.
I once heard the story of a Rebbe who walked into his beis midrash in Europe and saw one of his chassidim wearing a patched and ntorn a kappote stained with herring etc. The Rebbe stopped in front of him and asked, “How long did you have to stand in front of the mirror to perfect that look?”
Interesting too how the very chassidishe wives of these same very chassidishe mashpi’im don’t have the same disdain for “looking nice” (I don’t want to go there again. If you don’t know what I mean look at chabad’s own websites about the problems of dress vd”l.)
RSo: I take exception to your first paragraph but agree with the point made in your last paragraph.
I would just like to take this opportunity to point out to the mods and everyone that I am NOT the one who turned this thread into a Chabad war.
I may have said some bad things early on that got edited out, but subsequently I’ve been really nice to Chabad. Just figured I’d throw that out there. Anyway, carry on.
A rebbe of mine would say
Halacha mandates a seperation between erva and lev for Tefillah
Chassidim wear a gartel, Misnagdim wear a tieubiquitin, Misnagdim were a belt, but even the rubber band in the underwear is good enough.
I heard once that only a pasul sefer torah wears a gartel on the outside.
Yes, the gartel does go on the outside of the cover of a posul sefer torah as I’m sure people have witnessed in shul. What’s your point in making that statement here?
Laskern:
“I heard once that only a pasul sefer torah wears a gartel on the outside.”
The Frierdiker Rebbe (1880 – 1950) once said regarding why Lubavitcher Bochurim don’t wear a Gartel over their jacket, (we do wear one before marriage, but under the shirt) “מיינע בחורים זיינען נישט פסול’ע ספרי תורה” – My Bochurim aren’t Posul Sifrei Torah.The Frierdiker Rebbe (1880 – 1950) once said regarding why Lubavitcher Bochurim don’t wear a Gartel over their jacket, (we do wear one before marriage, but under the shirt) “מיינע בחורים זיינען נישט פסול’ע ספרי תורה” – My Bochurim aren’t Posul Sifrei Torah.
Implying that married men are?
Yes, the gartel does go on the outside of the cover of a posul sefer torah as I’m sure people have witnessed in shul. What’s your point in making that statement here?
It’s a good response to ubiquitin.
I saw my rebbi the Frierdiker Matersdorfer Rav ztz’l wearing a gartel under his jacket.
“It’s a good response to ubiquitin.”
Actually thats how I first heard the line regarding ties, I shared the passul sefer Torah remark and that was the reply.
“I saw my rebbi the Frierdiker Matersdorfer Rav ztz’l wearing a gartel under his jacket.”
Rav Shisgal z”l did this as well
Does anyone know what the yichus of the Gurary Mishpocho is? Shmarya Gurary (Gur Aryeh) was the Fridiker Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Eidim. Specifically I would like to know Moshe Gurary’s the mashpia in Tel Aviv. Are the Eineklachbof the Alter Rebbe?
@neville noted. May it continue 🙂
@joseph @rso the mashpiims wives are definitely tznius. In general the Rebbe encouraged us women to dress beautifully and tzniusly. Afaik this is the Jewish approach not just Chabad, although we may differ on particulars such as sheitels. In any case the chassidishe couples – the men watch their eyes and don’t look out for not tznius pics vdal and the women dress beautifully and tzniusly.Yes there are others who struggle. There are also Beis Yaakov graduates who dress the same but somehow no one calls them beis Yaakov girls, whereas all of our graduates are termed full on lubavitch so that’s not a fair comparison.
I really shouldn’t necessarily respond to that post as it was just meant to provoke, but I didn’t want to allow that slander against mashpiims wives to pass and shtika khodoah…
Yeah, I actually have to agree with Shlucah’s point. When girls are wearing miniskirts or pants and calling themselves Orthodox, we never claim that it proves Litvaks are un-tznius. When girls do it who follow Chabad hanhagas, people use it as a proof against Chabad.
It’s not fair that when Ashkenazim have one foot off the derech, we relabel them as MO so that they don’t set a bad example as Litvaks. When Lubavitchers do the same, we keep calling them full-blown Lubavitchers.
CS – Beautifying oneself must be limited to when within the contours of the privacy of one’s home, only for their spouse. Not for when in public or outside of one’s own home.
Joseph, please don’t derail this thread with some “women are required to look ugly at all times and if they don’t they should die” shtick. People might have still had stuff worth saying before this thread goes quiet.
I’m really starting to like Neville 2.0. Keep it up!
Lol sechel agreed!!
Joseph abba chilkiyas wife, among others went out to greet her husband fully dressed up and is brought as a positive example in gemara. So it seems its more intention than looks. Obviously with tznius limits. Chazal allowed women to wear jewellery in public. And hey ever heard of ain haisha ela lyofi?
Lol. That’s me. Neville ChaimBerlin, oheiv Lubavitch par excellence.
Sechel: You also think it’s okay for an eishes ish to dress “beautifully” when going out of the home in the public or elsewhere?
1. I know it is slightly off topic but it was mentioned. I don’t see how tucking in one’s shirt would negate the shitah of the Admor Hazaken in Shulchan Aruch Harav. Unless I misremember and misunderstand, the Admor Hazaken holds that if the beged becomes folded over it is problematic, and therefore you need to be careful that on both sides it is spread out atleast one amah to be yotzei. If you wear a bendel to hold down the beged (as many lubavitchers do) you can then pull the strings up and over the waist of the pants without folding the beged.
2. In Russia chassidim in the country didn’t even wear shirts. They wore an undershirt and a tallis katon and a rekel over that. Shirts started to become a thing in the cities and in places where Western culture reigned supreme. Who says that a shirt needs to be tucked in???? I tuck my shirt in when I have to go to a work related meeting but honestly who cares and why do they care? Fashion is a klipa and it is best to not fall in line.
3. On a related note and true to the thread topic: I wear a hat because The Rebbe wants me to. Every once in awhile I buy a new hat and it for the most part looks like any old Borsalino (with the exception being that I do not like the large brims and crowns which have become the norm in some places). However, I wear my hat in the rain, and I wear my hat at the seudos, and I wear my hat when I am shvitzing, and I rolled on the floor at hakafos, and a hundred other things and hats get worn out. If you look at pictures from the early 1900’s you will see the average hat looks worn. It is a new thing that people are so particular and careful and treat a hat with such a level of respect that halevy they would treat a Jew with.
CS – Aba Chilkiya’s wife stayed home the whole day. (The Gemorah mentions this when explaining why she gave more tzedaka than her husband.) Which, not so incidentally, aligns with the psak in both Shulchan Aruch and Rambam that a wife should not leave her home too much. Rambam specifies a specific limit on the number of times per month her husband should let her out whereas the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t put an actual number other than to pasken not to go out much.
I’m no Man Deomar in these matters, and I’m not married yet, but from what I do know, as long as done in an Eidel way, in accordance with Halacha, it’s a good thing. I refer to Chabad Shlucha to answer further questions about this, as it’s above my pay grade, and she’s far more qualified than me in this arena.
5ish: “Who says that a shirt needs to be tucked in????”
Who says you have to wear a white button-down? Who says you have to wear slacks and a jacket?
Nobody is mandating these things. The whole point is to look respectable. If one isn’t concerned with looking respectable at all times, they could wear shorts and a T shirt or whatever they want, as some people indeed do. Keeping to a frum dress code and then wearing it in such a way that doesn’t look respectable is just kind of ironically off point. It’s kind of like when people who want to always daven with a hat over their yarmulke put on a baseball cap when nothing else is around.
Am I saying that wearing an untucked button-down under a jacket (often just hanging off the shoulders) is barely any better than wearing shorts and a T-shirt? Yes, I am saying that at this point. I understand the look you guys are going for like I’ve stated earlier in this thread, but it just doesn’t look at all presentable. I guess I just lost my status as Chabad’s public defender.
Joseph, if your wife is a queen, you are a king. The wife also represents you. If she goes dressed “beautifully”, it reflects on you. You can trust her that because of your mutual love she will not sway from you.
My wife passed away over eight years ago. I always bought her nice jewelry and dresses because it made her happy to look good.
Joseph I don’t know if you are married. We sometimes were invited to an another family get together without mechitzas. We currently go out so we are used to see women. When you go to a wedding or a bar mitzva because there is a mitzva involved the yetzer hora is stronger to disrupt it and we need more protection.
another advantage by wearing the talis katan out: the tzitzis have to be hanging on the KANAF – the edge of the beged. if you tuck in the TK then you pick up the tzitzis to be out of the pants and the tzitzis are not on the kanaf. unless you really have long tzitzis. by wearing the TK out the tzitzis are always hanging on the kanaf. i saw some also shleping the corners of the beged over their pants for that reason, but then they are loosing the shiur of the beged which should be spread out.
laskern: Please see Rambam Hilchos Ishus 13:11 and Shulchan Aruch EH 73:1.
NEVILLE CB…..oihev lubavitch.
sure, the city NEVILE in russia was knowen as a chasidishe lubavitche shtetel.
the miteler rebbe expressed himself: HALELUHU BENEVEL……….I wear a hat because The Rebbe wants me to.
Ugh
Neville you don’t have to admire it justify everything we do to be respected by us. We all don’t necessarily agree on the same things. We just don’t like when people look out to attack for no good reason… The difference is evident.
With regards to your last post, shorts and a t-shirt are a problem halachically. It’s not tznius. Tznius applies to men too just women more so. So i don’t see the comparison between something halachically not ok and something that just looks unkempt.
Joseph yes abba chilkiyas wife stayed at home all day. All jewish women of the time did. Nevertheless, she left the house to greet her husband dressed in the equivalent of shabbos clothes to the point where his companions asked him why, as surely as a righteous woman she wasn’t doing it to attract their attention. He replied that she was doing it to direct his attention to her. And she is praised for that. Which proved my point. Not that women shouldn’t dress beautifully but they shouldn’t look to attract other mens attention and flaunt.
I don’t want to respond over much as to derail the thread but if it goes quiet I can address the Rambam and shulchan aruch although it’s a separate thing. You first brought up how women dress outside, now you’re bringing up how often they’re outside. And anyway this isn’t the main topic.Joseph, be realistic. Man are working so women must shop, take children to school when there is no transportation in a car pool, also families cannot support themselves without women working so we have to allow things for darchei shalom and sholam bayis. As mentioned before, we find the view that we become used to seeing women, so they don’t affect us. The Rambam and SA were in a different environment were women did not work so they were able to stay home.. How the children got to school , and shopping was done, I don’t know. The Aruch Hashulchan 75 saw this allowing to daven with their open hair, even though you can close you eyes or look away or they can cover their hair. Do you go out to a married friend for a dinner eating on one table without mechitzas?
When women go out, they have a valid reason to do so. They are not prisoners as the above Rambam states.
Laskern thanks for the context saved me the trouble of writing it up myself. And refreshing to hear it from other quarters.
@sechel thanks for the support. Although I wouldn’t have expected any less from you, and any other lubavitcher. I would think/ hope also that would be the reaction of any never married man, besides Joseph I suppose.Guys, just stop replying to it. You don’t even realize how many threads he’s ruined with these random Rambams that nobody holds by.
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