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How are Lubavitch hats any different than Litvish hats?
Or can Lubavitchers and Yeshivisher guys use the same type of Borsalino/fedora hats interchangeably?
Why did Lubavitchers stop wearing shtreimals and uphats, like the Frierdika Rebbe zt”l and the Chasidim wore, and switched to down hats under the last Rebbe zt”l?
Lubavitchers never wore shtreimels. Only the rebbe would wear one. The last Rebbe didn’t wear one because he maintained throughout his life that his shver was still the rebbe and he was just a sort of go-between. That’s why he took all kvitlach to the Ohel to read, which no Lubavitcher rebbe before him ever did.
i think other chassidusses also, it used to be that only certain people wore shtreimels
Wasn’t their some story about a disagreement between the Rebbetzin of the Frierdika regarding her son-in-law becoming Rebbe that led to the hat change?
How are Lubavitch hats any different than Litvish hats?
They are worn on leil Pesach.When the Rebbe and his wife arrived in America, the Previous Rebbe, who, because of ill health, was unable to greet his daughter and son-in-law personally, sent four of his most eminent chassidim to greet the Rebbe. The Previous Rebbe described his son-in-law as “one who recites Tikkun Chatzot; knows by heart the entire Talmud Bavli with the commentaries of the Ran, the Rosh and the Rif; he knows by heart the Talmud Yerushalmi, The Rambam’s Mishneh Torah with its commentaries and Likkutei Torah. . .” But despite all this, he humbly “goes with a hat that has its brim down. Go and greet him!”
When he was appointed rebbe, the last Lubavicher rebbe asked his mother-in-law for the shtreimel of his father-in-law but she wouldn’t give it to him because she had wanted her older son-in-law to become rebbe.
I heard this from Lubavitcher chassidim many times over the last thirty years, and it is also written in some of their history books.
EDITED! And this from the guy who keeps telling people to be civil? – 29
Lubavitchers wear the same borsalino fedoras, except that their pinch is closer and the back is pinched with three points like the Rebbe had on his hat. The Rebbe never told the Chassidim to emulate his style. Quite the contrary, there are some letters in which the Rebbe wrote that Lubavitchers should wear long coat, especially on Shabbes (the kapota). He explained in these letters that the change in the Lubavitch dress code is due to some g’zeiros edicted by the Russian gov’t, but now that Lubavitch relocated in America, they should reintroduce the old Chassidic levush. But most Lubavitchers didn’t follow that call because “a Chosid wants to be like his Rebbe.” (The Rebbe wore short jackets before the Nesius)
In regards to Shtreimels: In Lubavitch and other Chassidic groups in Russia and Ukraine shtreimels weren’t common and only the Rebbe and Yechidei Segula wore a shtreimel, and even then the Rebbeim only wore them in the Town of Lubavitch not when traveling (except the Rebbe Rayatz after his daughter’s wedding to The Rebbe from then on wore it outside Lubavitch)
In continuation to RSo’s anecdote: After The Rebbe took leadership as Rebbe one year later, he’s mother in law offered to give him the shtreimel, but he declined it at that time, and made some remarks to the effect that “that opportunity has passed” [i.e., in some way, it was now inappropriate to take possession of the shtreimel since initially he had been denied]. This exact question was once posed to the Rebbe by a very prominent rabbi from Israel, who sat on the rabbinical court in Jerusalem. The visitor remarked to the Rebbe that if he would wear a shtreimel, he would gain another 50,000 chassidim. The Rebbe replied, “Where would these chassidim come from? From other chassidic groups, or from Hashomer Hatzair?”Lol when did I ever tell anyone to be civil? Someone has to turn this thread into a brawl at some point.
Anyway, what I said strictly about the hat design was not controversial. Their hats are more compressed.
Are you really claiming your post was simply a non-controversial comment about hats? – 29
“…mit an eppel oif’n het. Didan netzach…”
According to a Lubavitcher rabbi I know, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, before he became 7th Rebbe, wore a gray fedora and wanted to continue to do so after he became Rebbe, but other senior rabbis convinced him to switch to a black fedora.
As for exact size of fedora, see photos from 40 years ago – hats were much smaller. And, of course, Moses’ fedora ….
Yes, before 1950 Lubavs mostly wore casquettes and other hats, but not shtreimlach.
The last rebbe wore a fedora because at the time it was modern, and he used to dress modern as part of his attempt to pass as a normal person. Once he became rebbe the chassidim tried to emulate him, so this ironically became frozen in time as the Lubav look.
For a comparison see the example of the Quakers, who in the early 18th century adopted a “plain” dress and manner of speech in order not to stand out, and then stuck with it as the fashions changed around them, so that 100 years later their “plain unobtrusive” dress and speech made them stick out like sore thumbs. Eventually they realized that they were achieving the exact opposite of their purpose, so they dropped it.
I’ve heard the story about the shtreimel, but don’t believe it. It’s perfectly true that his mother-in-law never approved of him, so the idea that she refused to give it to him is plausible, but I don’t believe he ever asked for it in the first place, because it’s inconsistent with the rest of the way he treated the nesi’us. He always acted and spoke as if he were not really the rebbe, so he would not have worn a shtreimel, which in Lubavitch was always reserved for the rebbe.
Casquettes? That’s like a baseball or racing cap.
The rebbetzen refused to give it to him during the year of time when their was no clear successor to Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak (presumably because he was not yet confirmed as the seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe). Moreover, there was a second candidate for the succession : Rabbi Shemaryahu Gurary, another son-in-law of the Rayatz. Not because she didn’t approve of him.
Milhous: The Rebbe took on the Nesuis openly and clearly and did all the things that only a Rebbe does like delivering Maamarei Chassidus, Yechidus. He simply always referred to the Fridiker Rebbe as The Rebbe.
The rebbetzen refused to give it to him during the year of time when their was no clear successor to Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak (presumably because he was not yet confirmed as the seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe).
What about after he became rebbe?
Then she offered the Shtreimel to him obviously, but The Rebbe said the opportunity had passed and didn’t take it. (Rebbeshe Inyonim, a ruchnyusidke reason). Even the Rashag accepted the Rebbe’s Nesius when he was chosen as Rebbe, and became his devoted Chossid. The Rashag was even on The Rebbe’s side in court when his own son stole the Seforim of the Frierdiker Rebbe claiming the yerusha while The Rebbe said it was the property of the Chassidim. That victory is celebrated on Hey Teves when the Sforim were brought back.
for more info on this subject, please refer to the attached (completely harmless) link or maybe not
note to mods- can you please post neville’s attempted comment? im extremely curious to see what he tried writing.
Are you for real?
Is the green moderator a different person than the blue moderator?
not recently -29
ylevi613, there is precedent in Lubavitch that one can say maamorim without officially being the rebbe. During the 9.5-year interregnum after the Rebbe Maharash passed away, before the Rebbe Nishmoso Eden officially accepted the nesi’us, both he and his brother the Razo said maamorim. Also the Ovrutcher Rebbe would say maamorim when he would visit Lubavitch, since for various reasons he couldn’t say them in Ovrutch. It’s also my understanding, though I’m not sure, that Reb Hillel used to say maamorim. So the Rebbe saying maamorim in the absence of his shver was not an “official” acceptance of the nesi’us. Bosi Legani 5711 signalled his willingness to function as a rebbe, but unofficially.
The most obvious prerogative of a rebbe that he did NOT do was to accept panim (kvitlach) in his own capacity. Instead he would take them to read at the Ohel. Every request for a bracha was answered with “azkiir al hatziyun”. This is not the way a rebbe behaves. No other rebbe ever did this. This is the way a go-between behaves; Moshe going up the mountain to convey the people’s words to Hashem.
Also at the table he would not sit at the head; that seat was reserved for the previous rebbe, and he would sit at the right. Again this was a sign of a reluctance to publicly and officially acknowledge that he was now the rebbe.
Wearing a shtreimel would be a very public statement that he was the rebbe, so he did not do it. Therefore I don’t believe the story that circulates that he asked the old rebbetzin for it.
However, I can easily believe that had he asked she would have refused. It became public knowledge during the court case that the old rebbetzin never approved of him, and never made peace with the fact that he was the successor, to the extent that in her will she instructed that he not say kaddish for her. This was not widely known before then, which is why there is a small contingent of Nechama Dinas in Lubavitch, all born in the ~14 years between her passing and the court case, but there are few if any born since then. Once chassidim knew how she really felt about the Rebbe they stopped naming after her.
As for the Rashag, it took approximately three years for him to accept that his attempt to become rebbe had failed, but after that he was absolutely devoted to the Rebbe. When the Rebbe was not invited to Barry’s wedding, the Rashag declared that he would not go either, but the Rebbe insisted that he go and be happy. At the farbrengen before the wedding the Rashag was very emotional about the situation, and the Rebbe was encouraging him to try to be happy.
“Are you really claiming your post was simply a non-controversial comment about hats? – 29”
When did I claim that? The said that part of the post about the hat design i.e. the flatness was non-controversial. Obviously the other part was controversial.
For those who are curious, I’ll try to hint at this in a way that won’t be blocked. As has been stated here by others, Chabad hats are flatter and more crushed for lack of a better word. What got my comment blocked is that I claimed it to be part of a greater “Chabad-look.” I did not word it in such a nice way, hence why it was blocked.
When the Jews were expelled from Israel in Roman times, they wore turbans similar to the Arabs. While in Europe, under cold climates, the SWITCHED their tradition to wear those hats, shtreimels etc.
Why, when the Jews, after 2,000 years of torture and death, returned to Israel, not SWITCH back to headgear more suitable to a hot climate?
As a rabbi once told us, it’s not a mitzvah to sweat !IOW, yechiell, in Israel we should go back to turbans.
Why would anyone think a turban is better suited for heat than a fedora? Do you think there’s an AC unit hidden in there? At least the fedora has a brim for the sun.
Of course you’re not answering the basic question – why were religious Jews allowed to change their tradition and put on black hats, while 2,000 years later, it is ossur to change back (turbans or other cooler headgears) ?
to watch whole communities in Israel under the black hat phenomemon, when it is 120 degrees in the shade, is plain meshugah.
Just my opinion – you want to sweat? gesunteheit !Yechiell: Nobody ever said it’s assur to not wear a black hat. Your understanding of changing minhag is very poor. Dress trends of a certain time period don’t constitute an official minhag. There’s also no written mesora I know of that Jews wore turbans 2000 years ago. People just like to assume they did to compare us to Arabs.
Are you trying to tell me that black hats is not an official minhag? At bar mitzvah kids start wearing black hats, and put them on even in the house just to bentch. If that’s not a minhag I don’t know what is.
As for turbans, you have an obsession about that. I clearly wrote turbans OR COOLER HEADGEARS. Of course, they probably did wear turbans, and no one is comparing that to the Arabs. Sketches of the Rambam show him wearing some kind of turban.
But , hey, you enjoy sweating? Again, gesunterheit !“If that’s not a minhag I don’t know what is.”
OK, you don’t know what a minhag is.
The point with the turbans is that formal wear always defies climate. If you really didn’t want to sweat, you would wear shorts and short sleeves. Whether you’re wearing Arabic formal attire, European, or Chinese, you’ll probably be warm. That’s just how the world works.
These discussions used to pop up a lot more in the CR. Usually just comes down to someone not entirely comfortable in their own shoes who gets insecure around people who are more frum, so they pick on superficial things like attire as a coping mechanism.
To get the thread back on track, if I may…
The “Chabad Look” to which I was referring I believe might actually be b’shittah. Chassidim usually have more established dress-codes than the rest of us. A big part of Chabad’s philosophy is that the Baal Shem Tov was extending frumkeit to the less financially fortunate; the assertion being that the Yeshivish velt had become too reserved for the rich. I think that shittah continues to influence their hanhagos today in that they might take pride in worrying less about looking primp and proper than their Litvish counterparts.
While Litvaks are very delicate about our hats and will replace them if they go limp, the Lubavitcher Rebbe wore a more tattered-looking hat that any of his chassidim could afford. The Rebbe didn’t dress royally like other chassidishe rebbeim. And, Chabadniks may keep strictly to a button-down + black jacket dress code, but they aren’t always tucked in and worried about their hats looking perfect. I think it’s all part of finding a balance between showing that a yid dresses respectfully, while also showing that yiddishkeit is not reserved for the posh.
Any Lubavitchers here want to back me up, or am I missing the mark?
lubavitch wants to attract the irreligious Jew; wearing a fur hat in the US or Israel would make them look weird. but they needed a mode of identification – hence the rebbe ztl’s hat style. thank God it was not brown like he wore to his wedding; would not match a black suit.
these are religious, not halakhically mandated modes of behavior
Neville you got it on target. Some of our boys serving as bochurim shluchim in yeshivos and thus are role models for the bochurim will prefer the not tucked in shirt to convey that bochurim should not obsess with their appearance. The vast majority of the men do tuck in as it looks more mesudar. I guess they tuck.in for dates and after marriage. Of course there are bochurim who come from home where being mesudar in all areas is stressed so they will tuck in
and there are married men who don’t, mainly fiery Israelis. It’s not an obsession either way but there is a message there…I guess another way this tone was set was the Rebbe wearing a tie but strongly encouraging his chassidim not to. Same idea behind.
bochurim will prefer the not tucked in shirt to convey that bochurim should not obsess with their appearance
untucked shirt = not obsessing with appearance?
Eh, I’m not buying it.
no links please
This should help for why Lubavitchers don’t wear streilmels.
As to how a Lubavitcher wears his hat, that is only based on the style and how the Rebbe wore his hat.
Would a Lubavitcher wear a Litvak’s hat?
Yes and no.
If he needs it to daven, a Lubavitcher if there isn’t any normal hat available would wear any second head covering to daven.
If not, why??
Hope that helps
Please ask for any other detailsMeno: think of it like how in Litvish Yeshivos the bochurim don’t usually wear ties on weekdays, but their rebbeim do. The Rosh Yeshiva wears a longer coat at most places. We all have concepts of bochurim dressing less formally than their superiors for gaavah kind of reasons.
It’s definitely a difference between Israeli/French Lubavitchers and American ones. The Israeli’s seem to go more extreme for the look I was describing. I think I can safely say I’ve never seen an Israeli Lubavitcher with their shirt tucked in (at least when they’re visiting America; I don’t see them in their natural habitat).
The tie thing I don’t get, and shluchim always seem to avoid the subject. Lubavitchers over the age of ~60 who were “old school” Lubavitchers and probably speak Yiddish all wear ties as glued to their necks as their hats are to their heads. Yet, the younger Lubavichers will flat out say it’s against their minhag to wear a tie. It doesn’t make any sense to me.
Meno: think of it like how in Litvish Yeshivos the bochurim don’t usually wear ties on weekdays, but their rebbeim do. The Rosh Yeshiva wears a longer coat at most places. We all have concepts of bochurim dressing less formally than their superiors for gaavah kind of reasons.
Tieless is informal.
Shirt untucked is unkempt.
TUCK IN THOES SHIRTS
I haven’t piped up in a long while, but I’m back now. Interesting topic.
Neville makes some good points, much of it is quite accurate. I think our Levush isn’t “B’shittah” at all, rather the Shitta is specifically not to focus on Levush or Chitzoniyus in general, therefore our Levush sort of just grew out of the circumstances and dress of the time. In Russia, the Chassidim would wear a jacket, normally a long one, and a simple Kasket. Nobody, other than Rabbonim wore hats. And Shtreimelach were reserved for the Rebbeim. The Mitteler Rebbe and the Tzemach Tzedek (2nd and 3rd Rebbeim) wore a triangular pointed hat, referred to as a “Kolpik” by some Polish and Galician Chassidim.Today we wear what was the traditional dress code of the regular American when the Chassidim first arrived ashore in New York, a jacket and fedora, not always a black one, brown and grey were common too. The Rebbe as well wore such a Levush precisely because he wasn’t yet the Rebbe until 1951, and wanted to be regarded as a regular Chassid, nobody special. What the Rebbe did change upon accepting the mantle of Nessius was that he began to wear a Kapote instead of a regular jacket.
There were certain Chassidim who arrived from Russia in the 70s and 80s, who changed their Kastet for a fedora, and the Rebbe instructed them to switch back to the Kasket. (Possibly the famed Chassid and Mashpia Reb Mendel Futerfas, among others).
What ChabadShlucha wrote:
“Some of our boys serving as bochurim shluchim in yeshivos and thus are role models for the bochurim will prefer the not tucked in shirt to convey that bochurim should not obsess with their appearance.”
As a former Bochur Shliach, I can attest that I have never heard of such a thing. Ironically, the year of Shlichus (usually around 21) I often when Bochurim start to dress in a more mesudar manner, usually tucking their shirts in. I personally was lazy with tucking in my shirt, and really only began to pay attention to it during my year of Shlichus. Almost all Yungerlait and older Bochurim will be usually tucked in.
I have more to add, but for now, Ah Gut Shabbos to all!
As a Lubavitcher I and a plethora of *serious* Chabad rabbis am/are adamant about bochurim tucking in their shirts. My Rosh Yeshiva (and mashpia for that matter–that’s Chabad jargon for the Lubavitchers in the house) will often stop bochurim even as they walk into the zal and ask them why their shirt is untucked.
When my own hat started looking old and worn out (I simply did not have money for a new one), my hat somehow “disappeared”. I went berserk looking for it, but in the end I was left with no choice but to ask my parents to help me pay for a new one (over a year later I found the hat in the teachers’ lounge while helping a rav with something there…).
Yes, a Lubavitcher bochur needs to look appropriate *especially* when travelling around outside of yeshiva. The Rebbe’s chassidim need to present themselves with respect.
But the tie thing I think will fall into what some people are saying here about being too “megusham”–that is, making too big a deal over physical appearance.
That being said, I strongly hold that in the right circumstances, it would be absolute shtus (d’leumas zeh –more Chabad jargon…) not to wear even a tie if it were deemed appropriate to the bochur or chossid’s role thereof.
A shliach I know wears a tie, and even asks one of the chassidim in his kehilla to do so to make sure that the mekuravim there don’t feel out of place amongst the other chaassidim who don’t wear one.
One last example: JJ Hecht was a secretary of the Rebbe, and one whose role involved dealing with the most high-class officials; essentially he was like the Rebbe’s embassador/spokesperson. Well, the guy was poor like no other, yet he took enormous sums of money as loans in order to buy the most expensive top-hat (as was considered high class at the time–you can see it in the videos) and most high class suit. He reasoned (correctly) that as someone representing the Rebbe he has to look accordingly.
Now how is it that he allowed himself to wear such expensive clothes as a chassid? Isn’t it megusham??? So if you wear it with your own appearance in mind then that would be true. But he was clearly doing so for a higher purpose and therefore did not fall into risk…
Thus is it that I assert, that indeed Lubavitchers need to look as dignified as possible, within the appropriate boundaries, especially in the eyes of those to whom we are representing the Rebbe.
*Standing ovation*
To the tie thing, whenever someone would ask me why I’m wearing a hat I would just answer that the Rebbe did.
The thing is that Lubavitcher bachurim in Yeshiva feel it’s too much of a baalabatishe thing for them to wear a tie.
It’s so much as to say a minhag. For example I have a friend who to him there isn’t really any reason to wear a tie.( sometime he does, sometimes he doesn’t)
However by his Bar Mitzvah obviously he wore a tie
Hope that helpsShmuel: My problem with your tie answer is that it isn’t limited to bochurim. I know Lubavitch baalhabusim who don’t wear ties even to their jobs where most other employees probably do. They say the reason is religious. When I asked one of the tie-wearing Lubavitchers why he wore a tie and others refused to, he said, “we’re old school Lubavitch.”
Is there some cut-off point at which tie-wearers were grandfathered in?
Neville Chaim Berlin I think you’re right in your asuumption when saying maybe the tie was an old school thing for I know many Lubavitchers mostly older people, that do wear ties.
Maybe now the style is no tie.Before my earlier post gets lost for reference I think I should revise. There is definitely the emphasis on bittul and not priding oneself for ones wealth or even spiritual standing (you would see that expressed practically with the lack of kovod people attribute for themselves and the lack of classes with the rich or not, everyone mixes without airs, for the most part) but I guess the rich / poor thing neville was saying isn’t the reason for current lubavitch dress as all the other Rebbeim wore streimlach or the like and only our Rebbe dressed differently the reasons for which were brought earlier in the thread. We just go after our Rebbe.
As far as the tie thing to me it makes perfect sense but that’s for another post.
Sechel youre addressing from your perspective and circles and I’m addressing from the discussions I’ve heard between my father and brothers who were in Yeshiva and my husband and brother in law who is a shliach in Yeshiva… There is that way of thinking or all bochurim would just tuck in. It is a topic of conversation and discussion among lubavitchers and its silly to make it sound as if everyone tucks in because you do, when that’s not the case. There are different approaches in different yeshivos as well. My brother is in a Yeshiva where the married Mashpia doesn’t tuck in apparently (and its mainstream, not detroit and not Queens etc) although that is rare. Some of my other brothers have attended another Yeshiva where the bochurim would get a knas for an untucked shirt
As for the tie thing, there’s a balance between looking menschlich and between jewish pride and the Jewish look. So the older chassidim belong to a time where if you didn’t wear a tie you were seen as uncivilised and not a mentch.
So the Rebbe wore and shluchim wore but when an eltere chossid wore to a farbrengen, the Rebbe said you’re wearing this rag too?! And encouraged him to take it off.
At the same time shluchim don’t try to look cool and trendy at all. Full beard dress code etc.
Younger shluchim live in an era where formality is down the drain and ceos wear torn jeans. So some feel a tie is unnecessary veltishe hanachos and they’re fine without
How do Lubavitcher do their peyos? Hidden behind the ear? Cutoff short? Long down their cheeks?
To Joseph:
We wear out peyos cut short, some until the bottom of the ear, some until the bone about halfway. There are several Chassidim who do put their peyos behind the ear, but that’s very uncommon. Most people with a beard will cut their peyos a little shorter so it doesn’t mix with the beard, because Al pi kaboloh they shouldn’t mix.I heard an interesting anecdote: A man deserved to be hanged so when a king had mercy on him, he decreed that he must wear a rope on his neck all his life to remember the king’s benevolence. The wearing of a neck tie reminds us of this.
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