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>>You cannot run a school if one girl feels that her davening will allow her to skip the first period or two and another girl feels that her chesed mission is more important than class and a third girl feels that she’d be more spiritually accomplished by learning sefer X when the class is learning sefer Y. That’s not a school — that’s anarchy.<<
When I was in elementary, a girl in my class only came to school for a half day – lemudei kodesh. Another girl went out of class during literature. Another girl went around to all classes for attendance. There were no drawbacks.
Personally, I’m jealous of someone who has the patience and desire to stand every day for one hour saying Shemone Esrei.
truthsharer:
“Have you ever discussed this with a therapist? A 13 year old davening a 1 hour shemona esrei is most likely some OCD issue.”
That’s jumping to conclusions rather fast… there are many far more positive (and likely) reasons for somebody davening a long SE.
Wolf:
“it must be acknowledged that it *is* unusual to take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei”
Agreed.
“and, like anything else that is unusual, if it intereferes with normal routine activities (such as going to school), then it *does* become a problem.”
Disagree.
“A school has a program and a cirriculum. A school cannot make customized schedules for every girl based on their own peculiarities. They have to schedule classes at a time that’s convenient for them and they have to have all the girls conform to that schedule. You cannot run a school if one girl feels that her davening will allow her to skip the first period or two and another girl feels that her chesed mission is more important than class and a third girl feels that she’d be more spiritually accomplished by learning sefer X when the class is learning sefer Y. That’s not a school — that’s anarchy.”
Obviously there must be some semblance of order in a school, but a school should still allow its students to follow their own individual spiritual paths and not smother them with rules, regulations, and conformity. A little bit of flexibility does not automatically create anarchy.
I have CDO – that’s OCD with the letters in proper alphabetical order – as they should be!
RK:
Very surprised at your post. A waste of Hashem’s time???? Even if someone were to daven 20 hours a day, it wouldn’t be a waste of Hashem’s time.
>> if one is petitioning a worldly king, mah sh’ein kayn, the King of the Universe, one should be as brief and to the point as possible.<<
Not if the wordly king was your father.
Not if you had a special relationship with this king.
And not if this king made it clear he loves spending time with you.
When you speak to your mother, do you just talk to her to make a request, and end the conversation? Imagine how she would feel if you did that?
And Hashem isn’t a human king/parent. He won’t get tired of hearing from us. It says if Hashem didn’t think about the world for one second, it would disappear. Hashem thinks about each and every one of us every nanosecond. He pays attention to our thoughts and actions every nanosecond. How can we be wasting His time if he is paying attention to us the entire time anyway?
“To take a whole hour is a waste of your time and HaShem’s time.”
That is borderline heresy. Hashem does not have any time constraints.
“A long Davening when you have other Torah specified obligations is not a Mitzvah. It is very similar to offering a sacrifice on a Bamah (an alter not in the Bais HaMikdash).”
Forgive me for not understanding the comparison between an Issur D’oraisa and a Talmud-sanctioned act of piety.
How much kavana does the 34 minute minyan have?
I personally don’t have any problems. I can say all the words and I understand what I’m saying. If anyone really had a problem, I guess they would find a slower minyan.
If you spend 1 hour with S.E. how much time do you spend on the rest of davening like Shema
The level of amaratzus in the CR is exceedingly disturbing
a prominent rosh yeshiva said he is happy if he has kavanah only for shema and SE
bec it’s better to have one thing that you do on a major-league level than a bunch of things you can do on a minor-league level.
and bec it’s nowdays for us on our spiritual level unrealistic to have real kavanah for the whole davening
I believe (at least for men anyway) Shema is D’asaysa and S.E. is M’drabanam.
PAA yes, and the only solution is for people like you to be as active as possible here and combat it as well as you can.
zahavasdad
Tefillah is D’Oraisa
but that is not nogeia really to the discussion at hand of how to help this worthy Bas Yisroel with a serious problem.
Disagree.
Then we have to agree to disagree.
Obviously there must be some semblance of order in a school, but a school should still allow its students to follow their own individual spiritual paths and not smother them with rules, regulations, and conformity. A little bit of flexibility does not automatically create anarchy.
I agree that there should be some flexibility. But allowing a student to miss an entire hour every day is beyond what the school should accommodate, IMHO.
The Wolf
but that is not nogeia really to the discussion at hand of how to help this worthy Bas Yisroel with a serious problem.
IMHO, this girl with so much Kedusha in her should be homeschooled, so that she can work on her own path to Hashem (as she seems capable of doing) and maybe even just Daven all day. Being in school just holds her back and opens her up to influences from schoolmates, as well as teachers that will insist on their own derech (as we see happening).
as opposed to most threads, were going to try and keep this one on topic.
if anyone wants to continue the interesting question of how far a school should go to accomodate the unusual needs of the students, please start another thread.
gavra: The girl doesn’t have a choice to be homeschooled. She doesn’t choose her schooling, her parents do. And they are probably working outside anyways.
i think you should just pray everything at home,
*that’s what i’m going to do since, in camp, there is only a certain amount of time we can spend praying and i take longer than that.
shein: She may have a better chance and/or feel more comfortable convincing her parents than teachers. School is meant to be regimented, and when there is an exception, everyone else asks for one as well.
There is another issue that none of the posters have touched on. I have heard from my Rebbi numerous times that the beis yaakovs do a terrible disservice to their students by having them daven the entire shachris: brachos, pesukei dizimra, birchos krias shema, shema, shemoneh esrei, etc. He said that the reason so many married women use “taking care of children” as a hetter to not daven is because they think they need 45 minutes to daven, when in reality all they need is 5 min to daven shemoneh esrei. There is a chiyuv for women to daven, anywhere between 1 and 3 tefillos a day depending on which shittah, and that chiyuv is unfortunately neglected by manny married women who feel that they don’t have the time. I would imagine that my Rebbi would say the same thing about a girl who takes an hr for shemoneh esrei.
As a side point about girls saying brichos k’s, from my own personal experience it seems that many women daven after zman tefillah, in which case it is assur to say birchos k’s, and they should be aware of that (as should the men who wake up late).
“He said that the reason so many married women use “taking care of children” as a hetter to not daven is because they think they need 45 minutes to daven, when in reality all they need is 5 min to daven shemoneh esrei.”
Rav Reuven Feinsein shlita said that it is very important for women to say pesukei d’zimra
sarbarah2: I get the impression that you may perhaps be **too** focused on what seems right to you and what your personal priorities are, and not sufficiently focused on what God’s priorities for you are.
Chazal tell us “meimis atzmo l’Torah” – kill yourself for Torah. This can be understood in many, many ways, but one interpretation is that our greatest task in life it to truly subjugate ourselves to the Torah’s demands on us. We need to conquer our own will and our own value judgments and replace them with God’s will and God’s value judgments.
You may sincerely believe that davening shemona esrei for an hour several times a day “is one of the most important things” you do. But is it? What does the Torah say? Is davening for several hours a day instead of for a more typical length of time really more important than attending your classes on time? What about when it comes time for you to get a job; will davening a one hour shemona esrrei be more important than getting to work on time as your employer expects? Whether or not it is right to rely on siyata d’shmaya (which one poster mentioned, but which, as was pointed out, was reserved for the chassidim rishonim) is not really the question. Even if you had the right to rely on God to make it all right because you daven so well and long, is that really what the Torah expects of you?
I am not trying to answer one way or the other. My point is simply that you seem a bit too set in your ways. You seem to be looking for justifications for your practice and unwilling to consider whether what you are doing and the way it is affecting your other obligations is really the right thing to do. Please, talk to a rav, or someone else that you trust to give you an accurate portrayal of what the halacha expects from you here – not just what will feel good. Explain the situation – your desire to daven long, the affect it has on your schooling, the tension it will likely cause between you, your teachers, the school administration, and your parents. See what he/she says.
sarah
i think rsrh is giving you very good advice
Chazal tell us “meimis atzmo l’Torah” – kill yourself for Torah.
How does one go about fulfilling this ma’amar Chazal?
The Wolf
i think the poster explained this in his post itself, but if you would like to discuss it further please start another thread. should be interesting.
Why does everyone here seem to find it unreasonable that someone could daven shemona esrei for an hour? If someone can really do that, it’s amazing, and should not be discouraged.
youve come a long way here
now youve come to a crossroads
tough decision
talk to Hashem
ask for s’yata d’shmayah in deciding
i would say talk to a Rov or Rebittzen, but it would have to be a very special one.
When you get a little older and I’H you get married and have kids, 1 hour S.E. will not be possible and if you feel that you havent done the proper davening unless you spent an hour doing it, you wont feel right even though you will have other responsibilities.
Its much easier to change sooner rather than later
There is no reason to rush a negative change a day earlier than absolutely necessary. (Hopefully it will never be necessary to change!)
patur- “Rav Reuven Feinsein shlita said that it is very important for women to say pesukei d’zimra” It’s not Rav Reuven Feinstein who said that, it’s a Rav Akivah Eiger. No one’s disputing that there’s an inyan for women to say pesukei dizimrah. All I’m saying is that the schools should be driving home the point that it is not by any means required, and that their chiyuv tefillah is satisfied just with shemone esrei.
shein- “There is no reason to rush a negative change a day earlier than absolutely necessary. (Hopefully it will never be necessary to change!)” You are living in dream land if you think that when this girl gets married, has children and a job she’ll be able to daven one hr shemonah esreis plus pesukai dizimrah and everything else. Let’s look at this from another angle. The Rambam holds a woman must only daven once a day, while the Ramban hold she must daven more (some say 2, some say 3). Most achronim, including the mishnah berrurah hold like the Ramaban. However, many women, unfortunately, daven only once a day. Now, if you have a girl who takes around an hr and 45 minutes to daven shachris, and she gets married and has all kinds of time constraints, do you think she is more likely to be one of the women who daven 2-3 times a day, or will she be one of the women who rationalizes davening only once a day? I know your gut reaction will be that if she appreciates davening so much, she’ll be the type to want to daven more. But i believe if you’re really honest with yourself you’ll agree that is not the case. Just from my own personal experience, I know of a few women that daven 3 times a day, and I would say their shachris takes abt 20 min, and mincha and maariv take about 5. ( not that that proves anything, obviously). In addition, the posters who expressed concern about a young girl davening an hr shemone esrei are correct, the chassidim harishonim took an hr to daven. Now assuming this girl is not on the level of the chassidim harishoim ( i know, im jumping to conclusions here) it’s a little bit much to daven for an hr.
sarah- I think the best advice given so far was from the mod who recommended you speak to a rav or rebbitzen about your predicament. Good luck.
It seems to be that been misinterpreted. When I first mentioned the gemara about the chasidim harishonim, it was not intended to prove that one should daven longer. It very well may be that we are not on the level to spend nine hours a day on davening. The reason for mentioning the gemara was as a response to those who claimed that if you spend so much time davening then all your other obligations will be neglected. To that the gemara says that those who spent such a long time on davening had siyata dishmaya that they could accomplish more in less time.
Wolf:
“Then we have to agree to disagree.”
I agree. 🙂
RSRH:
“Is davening for several hours a day instead of for a more typical length of time really more important than attending your classes on time?”
Very possible, bordering on probable.
“What about when it comes time for you to get a job; will davening a one hour shemona esrrei be more important than getting to work on time as your employer expects?”
That issue needs to be dealt with when it arises; how does that affect the present situation?
how do you expect a school to allow you to daven for an hour and a half? That means you are missing a full period per day (at least). Get up an hour earlier and daven and say tehillim during davening time.
“That means you are missing a full period per day (at least).”
Davening properly is more important than anything a girl will learn in school.
“Davening properly is more important than anything a girl will learn in school”
That seems like just the kind of belief that would come from not learning anything in shcool.
Are you implying that anyone not davening shemona esrei for an hour is not dovening properly? If so, fine. But if one can daven properly in less time, and such a long tefilla is merely a hiddur or personal preference (assuming its not counterproductive in itself), then yes, there is good reason to think that other things might be more important.
“chasidim harishonim”
I checked the Artscroll Berachos on this and a wonderful insight is brought down.
The Gemara asks how their needs were done and their knowledge of Torah kept. The focus is on the term “kept” rather than acquired.
This implies that they had already fully acquired Torah previously and only then were able to become the “chasidim harishonim”. This is based upon the dictum that one who is deficient in Torah knowledge can not be a true chasid.
Based upon this, their spending 9 hours in Davening only occurred after they mastered Torah. Hence, the concern was only how they kept on to their Torah knowledge, and not how they acquired their Torah knowledge.
“That seems like just the kind of belief that would come from not learning anything in shcool.”
Instead of just dismissing my claim by insinuating that I did not learn anything in school, would you care to give an example of something learned in school that is more important than davening?
“Are you implying that anyone not davening shemona esrei for an hour is not dovening properly?”
Not at all. But for some people it is.
Patur,
My point was simply rhetorical. **IF** davening for an hour and missing classes is not the right thing to do, the person doing it will likely not find that out because she will spend all her time davening, and will miss the class were other students learned to do other wise.
I am not saying that that is the case here. Merely that your line of reasoning is flawed. Its like saying actually cooking is far more important than anything I could ever learn in culinary school. Of course it is, but if you never go to culinary school, you may be cooking wrong the whole time, and then where are you?
The same is true here. It may be that davening **properly** is far more important than anything you will learn in school (I think that’s debatable, but I’ll let the more chassidish/spiritually-minded here assume that point). But if you don’t go to class, you won’t know whether the way you are davening is actually the proper way or not. If it turns out that it isn’t, well now, a fine mess you’re in!
RSRH
If the class that is being missed is a class on how to daven then yeah you are right. But I highly doubt that that is the case. More likely it is either a secular studies class or some sort of chumash class where the girls just memorize long and complicated Rambans, both of which are far less important (for a girl) then davening.
“”chasidim harishonim”
I checked the Artscroll Berachos on this and a wonderful insight is brought down.
The Gemara asks how their needs were done and their knowledge of Torah kept. The focus is on the term “kept” rather than acquired.
This implies that they had already fully acquired Torah previously and only then were able to become the “chasidim harishonim”. This is based upon the dictum that one who is deficient in Torah knowledge can not be a true chasid.
Based upon this, their spending 9 hours in Davening only occurred after they mastered Torah. Hence, the concern was only how they kept on to their Torah knowledge, and not how they acquired their Torah knowledge.”
As I’m sure you noticed, only regarding Torah does it say “kept”. A woman has no chiyuv talmud torah. THerefore davening would outway learning. Regarding work, the gemara does not ask “how was their work kept?”, rather it asks “how was their work done”?, to which it answers that they were able to do just as much in less time. Clearly then, a girl who needs more time to daven should definitely sacrifice other things from her schedule.
” Its like saying actually cooking is far more important than anything I could ever learn in culinary school.”
I think you should check out the thread about metaphors. Your comparison is patently ridicilous. The case in hand is not a situation of davening vs. learning the requisite skills for davening properly. It is a case of davening properly vs. a class which is at best, an intellectual stimulation.
“More likely it is either a secular studies class or some sort of chumash class where the girls just memorize”
“which is at best, an intellectual stimulation”
This kind of hostile attitude towards learning (both kodesh and chol) and school is a big problem. It infects our children and gives them an excuse to neglect their studies and stunt their intellectual growth. For both Jewish men and women knowledge is needed to fulfill our roles in life.
As I showed above the “chasidim harishonim” certainly did not use prayer to escape learning.
“This kind of hostile attitude towards learning (both kodesh and chol) and school is a big problem. It infects our children and gives them an excuse to neglect their studies and stunt their intellectual growth”
How does saying that for a girl, davening is more important then learning, demonstrate a hostile attitude toward learning?
“How does saying that for a girl, davening is more important then learning, demonstrate a hostile attitude toward learning? “
I was not commenting upon her desire to daven, but on your statements that show a disdain for for both Torah and secular learning.
“I was not commenting upon her desire to daven, but on your statements that show a disdain for for both Torah and secular learning.”
My statements in no way show a disdain for Torah or secular learning. I was merely trying to point out that a girl has no chiyuv of talmud torah, while she soes have a chiyuv of tefila. And secular studies do not even come close to the importance of davening.
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