Lo'eg Larash

Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Lo'eg Larash

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • January 15, 2012 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #601639
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    BTGuy asked what it’s about and I did not want to answer in that thread — unless you pour a Revi’is of water.

    It says in Mishlei (17:5) Lo’eg Larash Charef Osehu, One who mocks a poor person curses his Maker. Chazal (Brachos 18, and elsewhere) apply this to a dead person. Once a person leaves this world he cannot perform Mitzvos anymore. Pointing this fact out to them is a form of disgrace.

    For this reason, when walking in a cemetery we don’t let our Tzitzis hang out, so as not to be pointing out that we have what they don’t. The Gemara also applies this to one who is not Melave a Mes.

    January 15, 2012 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #941895
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I thought the source was the gemara which talks about why we don’t urinate on dead enemies.

    January 15, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #941896
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    No, that is because when you come to Daven at their graves, they might get you back.

    January 16, 2012 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #941897
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi HaLeiVi.

    Thank you for posting that information. I appreciate the time you took so I can learn something new to me. Thank you.

    I see where chazal say this applies to a dead person as well.

    For the sake of conversation, do we know if this applies to a sworn enemy/rodef?

    I ask this for two reasons:

    1. Once it is permissible to kill an attacking people in combat where for example weapons like flame throwers can be used, parts of their bodies can be blown off, their intestines can be flowing all over the ground as they watch, how is urinating on the body any less of a disgrace to what was done to end their lives?

    2. I read this past Shabbos that the reason we needed to show respect to Egypt/Paroah in our dealings was for the reason they were out hosts. We lived as sojourners in their land.

    The Taliban are not anyone’s hosts. They serve only to end the lives of those not like them and those who do not want to become like them.

    If a nonJew in combat blows away an enemy, and ends up doing such an act, I apologize, but I cannot see that with disgust. I mean, the entire scenario is not one I want to dwell on. Maybe I need to become more sensitized as you suggest. I will think about what you are saying.

    January 16, 2012 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #941898
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Although Lo’eg Larash applies to anything, including not being Melave, we usually only quote it for Mitzvos, that we don’t do in front of them so as not to make them jealous, or more correctly, not to disgrace them by pointing out what they lack.

    The Mishna in Avos says that all the time in Olam Habaa does not compete with one hour on this world. This is a world of opportunity. Once a person dies he can’t do any more Mitzvos. To drive home that fact is disgracing the Niftar. It does not apply to bodily functions. I’m not sure that a Mes misses that so terribly (perhaps those guys do). What I wrote on that other thread was a joke. But, now that we are talking about it, Bizui Hames definitely falls under Lo’eg Larash.

    When Beis Din has to kill someone with Skila they hang him until night. After that they must take him, for as the Torah says, Killelas Elokim Taloi. The Gemara explains that when a person, that has a Tzelem Elokim, hangs for a sin it is not Kavod to Hashem. You see that Lo’eg Larash wouldn’t tell you to take him down, since there is a point to what you are doing. You aren’t merely laughing at the fact that he is dead.

    If a poor man insults you and you yell at him, that is not Lo’eg Larash, either. It means to take advantage of is dire situation and mock it. The Pasuk implies that you are mocking Hashem’s system by ridiculing a pauper or a corpse.

    The story of last week was bad taste, in my view. The enemy was dead and past the point of return. As far as those bodies were concerned, the fight was over. However, it obviously doesn’t fall under Lo’eg Larash. (And even if it did, I don’t think we would condemn the marines for showing Tzitzis to some dead Talliban.)

    I think it is appropriate for the US to respond appropriately, in order to disassociate that behavior from government policy. Did they? They over reacted.

    January 16, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #941899
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: You are slightly inaccurate on this. If you hold that a dead person is no longer obligated in Mitzvos, then Lo’eg Larash doesn’t apply for doing Mitzvos in front of them.

    January 16, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #941900
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi HaLeiVi.

    Very well stated, thought provoking, and an interesting teaching on your part. Thank you, again.

    You bring so many points across with a great deal of clarity, giving a lot to think about.

    There are many kinds of enemies and there were many kinds of wars, but the arabs, with their unique style and panache hold to the most heinous attitudes about murdering since the yemach sh’mos of WWII. It does make it difficult/impossible to have a sense of pity on such an enemy.

    Regarding government policy: For the most part, think of the stupidest approach to a problem. So stupid that you think, “Nah, they would never so or say that.” And then they go and do or say that.

    January 16, 2012 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #941901
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    sam2, that only makes a difference if you may or may not put Klaim on the Mes.

    January 16, 2012 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #941902
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Look at the Gemaras (Niddah 20a and Brachos 18, I believe). It’s R’ Yochanan Leshitaso. My issue is that we Pasken like R’ Yochanan by Mitzvos B’teilos but not by Lo’eg Larash, apparently. I’m not sure what P’shat with the two is.

    January 17, 2012 1:39 am at 1:39 am #941903
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    In that Gemara in Nidda(61b) Tosafos asks: Even though the Mes is Patur from Mitzvos, how can you put Kla’im on him? It is still a problem of Lo’eg Larash.

    You can see from that Tosafos that the two topics are not connected. Lo’eg Larash is driving home the fact that he cannot do or does not have, Mitzvos. Meisim Peturim means that there is no problem for the Mes to be wearing Kla’im.

    January 17, 2012 1:59 am at 1:59 am #941904
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ouch. I was off by a lot there. What’s on Niddah 20a that I saw recently that I confused the two?

    January 17, 2012 3:28 am at 3:28 am #941905
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Maybe you saw Menachos 41a (tosafos brings it) that speaks of putting Tzitzis on Meisim, and you remembered the difference of 61-41.

    Or, perhaps you saw the topic of Mapeles and it grossed you out, and it sounded like it is mocking Nefalim!

    January 17, 2012 3:52 am at 3:52 am #941906
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Is Niddah 20b the one with the colors (or is that 21b)? That’s the only Gemara that’s ever grossed me out.

    January 17, 2012 5:12 am at 5:12 am #941907
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The colors or the animal shapes? How about Reb Yirmiya trying to get Reb Zeira to laugh?

    March 31, 2013 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #941908
    Wisey
    Participant

    I don’t think that “Loeg larash” applies to a dead goy. The MB says that Loeg Larash only applies to a dead koton since his neshama may have been the neshama of a gadol, and therefore he was once chayav in mitzvos.

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.