Living With Poppa Is Hard TO Bear

eclipse, no answers 4 u, or usefull advise, but Im so sorry. It sounds like u have to live every day with so much hardships. I really admire u and especially ur ability to have a positive attitude seemingly all the time! Hashm should send u only Brachah and Simchas always. Lots of Hatzlachah.

That is a very hard situation.

I have heard that the most important thing to do is to let you know that you will love, support, and accept them as your children even if they are not frum or anything.

And that should really be the truth also. We don’t know what a person’s ??????? are. You are their mother, and know them better than anyone else, but I am sure there is much that you don’t know.

The passuk in malachi says about the the yemos hamashiach: ?????, ??????, ??? ????, ????–??? ???? ??????, ???? ?? ????.

We will only be able to tell the difference then, we can’t tell now.

You know how much your kids have been through. If there is one thing that will make them come back and love Hashem, won’t it be your unconditional support?

May you have the Siyata Dishmaya to bring her back to the Derech of Torah & Mitzvos. Chodesh Adar & Nissan are times of Geula. May you see Hatzlacha in opening your heart & home to her & that she shouldn’t influence the others.

eclipse~ I will share my personal experience.

I have a son & daughter 2 1/2 yrs apart.. then had a 5 yr ‘break’.. then had a another son & another daughter 2 1/2 yrs apart.

both my sons went OTD, then came back, then went OTD again, & then came back again. my sons are now 32 & 24 & remain strongly back, B’H.

part of those yrs, they lived at home.. part of those yrs. they were in yeshivas in Israel. no matter where they were living we strongly, lovingly supported them unconditionally. it was easier for me than for my DH ’cause I’m a BT, & my husband comes from a very strict Chassidishe family.

I belonged to the core group of MASK & found myself not endorsing the majority of the members’ policy of ‘tough love.’ and glad I felt & practiced the way I did, as my sons always knew how much I cared. there were other parents who removed the OTD child from the home because of the fear that the younger children would be badly influenced.

as noted, you can see each son has a sister close in age. my older daughter has always been completely ‘yashar’/straight. she always showed her brothers much love, caring, & tried in the nicest ways to endorse her strong beliefs. my younger daughter is a little more modern observant. altho’ both girls were completely exposed to both their brothers’ actions, I can honestly say that they weren’t affected in their Yiddishkeit by their brothers.

but you also havta understand that my children did not live sheltered ultra-Orthodox lives: they saw movies & tv (altho’ my older daughter chose not to starting in high school); they went on family trips & were exposed to many different types of Jews: in Eugene, OR. & Seattle, WA. for example …… so these circumstances may differ from yours.

I wish you strength & clarity .. & pray for happy endings with your children as I have had with mine.

{{{HUGS}}}

Shrek~ beautifully said!! yasher koach

There is a topic brought up often about the affect of having not-that-Frum guests over, on your children. I was brought up with many different and interesting guests at our Shabbos table. It never occured to us that their life style had anything to do with us. Basically, it has to do with the “angle of approach”, the mindset in which the newcomer is accepted. When the other children know and fully understand that she must be loved and not imitated, they will hopefully keep things in their proper perspective.

You’d have to work in stages. You start by working only on the relationship. Then, if you have good feelers, you decide as you go along what you can and cannot ask of her. You always want to be one step ahead and still want her to feel dependent on you in as many ways possible.

You might want day to day advice from a Baal Ruach Hakodesh. Don’t forget to Daven, either.

I’ve spent a few years among families of Rabbonim who teach in kiruv Yeshivos and bring these off the derech boys home on a regular basis. I would say that because their children understand that they are playing a part in trying to help, they tend to objectify them rather than learn from them, often referring to them as “the bochurim”. All the while these kids will happily play with them.

So maybe you can explain to the rest of your kids that daughter X is going through a difficult time but we all really want her to get better so let’s show her extra love by doing xyz. In this way maybe they will feel that they are part of the helping initiative and distance themselves from her actions while still showing her love.

Also, your daughters actions as you describe them really show that she is doing it out of anger. Eventually her anger will pass as she grows up and what will happen then can be heavily affected by your actions now. I definitely agree with Shrek that she is testing the waters. Show her your unconditional love now.

If she is still ‘talkable’ try to have some mother-daughter time once in a while. Maybe just the two of you going out to eat. Discuss normal things with her, instead of chastising her or telling her how pained you are. Tell her that no matter what, you still want that relationship with her above anything else.

If she is not receptive, then take the initiative. If you know she will be going out one night, leave her a peckel of her favorite food or treat on her pillow or in a place where she will definitely get it. Leave her small things, just to show her that you think about her, but don’t want to intrude into her space until she is ready to talk.

Remember that above all, she is suffering from pain and anger that she doesn’t know how to deal with. Your love can help her more than anyone else.

drugs were absolutely heavily in the picture with our boys.

please take this in the spirit it is meant: be real… & open to the fact that it’s veryy possible… it usually goes hand in hand. if not drugs, then alcohol.

sorry to say, & hopin’ not in your case, iy’H.

IMHO, Derech’s comments were given as advice, not as a personal attack; same with my comments. I’m just sayin’….

eclipse, if she is smoking, drugs are either in the picture or will be soon. If nothing else then pot for sure. Girls don’t leave their home at 3:00am and stay out all night because they are eating milk and cookies. Furthermore, they are not sleeping over at their girlfriends’ home so taking her to a gyn might be a good idea. Discuss that with her. Let her know that you have questions since she hasn’t been living with you and you are not sure how long this has been going on. Let her know that you love her and want to make sure that she is healthy and does not expose herself to any health risks or pregnancy. YOU ARE her mother and YOU have to think straight and not have blinders on. Sorry that I have to bring this up, but it is quite obvious what is going on. Girls are looking for love, compassion and affection because of their dysfunctional situation and are confused so they turn to the boys thinking they will get it from them. Boys make the same mistake. There is an old song “looking for love in all the wrong places”. And it describes our kids at risk to the tee. She is looking for a sense of normalcy and in her world at the moment that is what is normal. Unfortunately neither she nor the rest of her group will know understand that it is not until they are much older.

aries~ I dunno exactly what MASK email forum you were on, but it sounds like you received emails. whatever helps, I guess, is a good thing.

at the beginning of MASK, I sat in people’s living rooms with 8 or so of us parents there. my first experience: the frum woman on the couch next to me, [a therapist!], stood up & said that her son’s a heroin addict & what it was like to have him taken away in handcuffs on a Shabbos afternoon, in full view of the neighbors. my mouth dropped wide open to the floor… this was the real deal.

I left the MASK meetings years ago already, well after R’ BenZion Twersky got involved, and many off-shoot branches had begun. that’s not to say, tho’, that my problems were over… the worst was yet to come. 🙁

B’H, as I said before, these issues are behind us now. I can’t say ‘Baruch Hashem’ enough times!!!

lol, Popa~ me, too.

our eclipse is quite a clever punster 🙂

I never went to MASK meetings, although I did what I could to help through the emails.

Eclipse, as I said before, a friend of mind used to say “G-d don’t make no junk!”. I have never met a “bad” kid, just kids with “bad” problems..:)

eclipse:

I really like your attitude toward the situation- that it’s all custom-designed for your growth, and not a blame-game.

What a Kiddush Hashem! Thank you for the Chizuk.