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They could be talmidei chachomim but still wrong.
Like eating in the house on Shmini Atzeres.
Dy
You have that backwards. You mean like eating in sukkah on shemini atzeres clearly zilzul of yom tov no less than arba minim would be.
Sure people claim that eating in sukah isnt nikur that it is chol, which is of course nonsense (though perhaps it was once true) since there is no way to explain eating in sukah other than the chashah that it is hoshana rabah, I have never seen anyone eat in a sukah for any other reason. (Though again perhaps at one point it wasnt unusal, since many say that it isnt nikur that doing it for sukkos, something which is clearly not true today)
In fact it runs counter to the classic tur that the reason we commemorate sukkos in the fall is precisly when people are going indoors and it is no longer “normal” to eat outdoors as the weather gets cooler, that we leave the house for the sukah. SO how then can one be mezalzel yom tov of shemini ateres by calling it (in practice which is seemingly worse than word) “safek sevii shel pesach” ?
I am sure that the many gedolim who eat in a sukah on shemini atzeres have a valid reaon. PErhaps it is an example of minhag oker halacha
“I am sure that the many gedolim who eat in a sukah on shemini atzeres have a valid reaon. PErhaps it is an example of minhag oker halacha “
It’s black on white in the Gemara Sukkah 47a that the halacha is we sit/dwell in the Sukkah on Shimini Atzeret.
See Shulchan Aruch O”Ch siman 668.
Getting back to Yom HaAztmaut.
I heard beshaim Rav Aharon Soloveichik that Yom HaAtzmaut does not qualify as a Yom Tov according to the Jewish construct of making Yomim Tovim. On other holidays (Chanukah and Purim), we celebrate the end of the war and the ability to live in peace. On Yom Haatzmaut, the official sovereignty was transferred, but a war broke out right after.
IMHO, Yom HaAtzmaut should be celebrated on the day that the fighting for war of independence was over.
MDg
If only it were black and white life would be much simpler. It is also black and white that it is assur to do anything to be mezalzel yom tov by indicating that it is chol.
As for “dwell” in the Sukah (which would presumably include sleeping) to the best of my knowledge nobody holds you do this on shemini atzeres Dthe Darchei Moshe brings this besehm the Rosh and tur for the reason mentined above. That “sitting” is alowed becasue we sometimes do it with no mitzvah, which is not so for sleeping. So Dwelling/sleeping in sukah is presumably assur (read not optional but assur) as for “sitting” assuming it is something we do even when not a mitzvah, thus not being mezalzel in yom tov then (and only then) can we eat in the sukah on shemini atzaeres
Getting back to Yom ha’atzmaot…
Chanukah does not celebrate the end of war nor the ability to live in peace. The war continued for several years after liberating the beis hamikdash. IT is black and white in megilas taanis (with several days commemorating battles that took place after Chanukah eg Yom nikanor) and lehavdil Josephus
Sorry, ubiquitin, but I lost you there.
No worries DY. I write quicky and often my writing only resembles English (which I beleive is ok according to the rules)
there is a general rule that we never do anyting to be mezalzel yom tov. In other words Every yom tov sheni is Safek yom tov rishon, safek chol. Mideroisa there is no second day of yom tov sukkos it is either the first day or the first day of chol hamoed. So while on the third day of sukkos we say indicate in our davening and laining that it is either the second day or third day of sukkos (both chol) we never do this on Yom tov. Even tefilin which is De’oraisa even those who wear on chol hamoed dont wear it on yom tov sheini even though it is safek chol (should say safek deoraisa lechumra) we arent mezalzel yom tov. Not with words and certainly not with actions.
This is why we dont shake arba minim on shemini atzeres doing so would clearly indicate that we are mesupek that it is really the 7th day of sukkos (yom chol) and we dont want to be mezalzel yom tov (Muktza is a side issue and is circular since if we took lulav on shemini atzeres it wouldnt be muktza, so not taking it solely BECAUSE it is muktzah is circular since is only muktzah since we dont use it).
The Gemara of course says we sit in sukah on shemini atzere. Many rishonim including Tosfos on the spot explain that since there are times that a person eats in sukah (nice weather) it isnt obvious that he is announcing today is chol so there is no zilzul. I beleive tur and Rosh say this too.
It seems obvious and I believe the Orach Hashulachan (!!!) says this beferish that if it is obvious that eating in sukah is BECAUSE maybe it is 7th day of sukkos it shouldnt be done(I dont recall if he says this lehalacha or just a limud zechus I have to double check it seems surprising that he would say not to eat in sukah).
Now I have to tell you that I have never eaten in a sukah unless it was Sukkos. Even outdoors depending Isnt something I have done or seen many poeple doing in the New york area in October. Eating in the sukah on Shmini atzeres is clearly becasue maybe it is 7th day of sukkos. This is a zilzul to yom tov and shouldnt be done.
Of course I am sure those who do eat in sukah have a good reason too.
(an exception to this is counting sefira on he second day of PEsach therby signaling that perhaps it is chol. The nosei keilim talk about this.
The Erev tavshilin al tnai MIGHT be another example. Seems debatable
I cant think of any other example)
ubiq: You are wrong about Shmini Atzeres. You’re against an explicit Gemara that was dealing with your issue.
Ubiquitin, the Aruch Hashulchan was a limud z’chus for a very cold climate. This does not apply in most places frum Yidden live in today.
Those who don’t sit in the Succah on Shmini Atzeres are in direct violation of the gemara and Shulchan Aruch, and should go to the succah, because minhag isn’t oker halachah.
(I know all about the zilzul issue, and I can usually read through the typos, but I thought you were mixing up “house” and “succah”, but I suppose that was based on your not knowing the gemara/S”A).
Sam2
The gemara was talking about where sitting in a sukah can be explained as not just becasue sukkos. Tosfos says this explicitly.
Whether that applies to OCtober in New york is debatable. But what tosfos says is not.
besides, you dont mean I am wrong you mean me the Divrei Chaim, Oheiv yisroel and others. (I believe some Rishonim mention this including maharil and machzor vitri also made reference to this)
you are of course entitled to your opinion (and obviously most poskim say like you)
DY
Yes I assume he just meant it as a limud zechus.
though I laughed at the “very cold climate” How do you define “Very cold”
Care to guess what the temperature is in vilna in September- OCtober? I dont consider 40’s – 50’s “Very cold” but admittedly that is subjective
“but I suppose that was based on your not knowing the gemara/S”A”
Hardly. Its just that ive looked at tosfos too…
Those who do sit in the Succah on Shmini Atzeres are in direct violation of the how most (all?) Rishonim understand the Gemara, and should keep eating in the sukah, because they have on whom to rely and minhag is oker halachah.
Look the bottom line is this discussion is quite simple.
Have you ever eaten outdoors on October 23 if it wasn’t a safek maybe last day sukkos?
If yes no problem! I have to tell you I haven’t nor have I seen anyone doing it
“The original minhag only encompassed marriage and hair(beard)cuts.”
Correct. And erusin was even permitted. See Shulchan Aruch 493:1-2. There is no mention of avoiding music. I have been advised by my rav just to follow the halachah that is in the Shulchan Aruch and Rema here.
charlie: If you want to follow the Shulchan Aruch, don’t listen to music all year round.
This is not against you, Charlie, but this is an important point that many, many people miss. It is incredibly stupid for those who claim that the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t Asser music during Sefirah. Of course he did! He just had no need to write it because it’s always Assur. The analogous case (ad absurdum) would be claiming that Giluy Arayos is Muttar on Shabbos because you won’t find any mention of it being Assur in Chelek Gimmel or Dalet in the Mishnah Berurah. It is a ridiculous claim. As is the claim that music is Muttar during Sefirah because the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t say it’s Assur. Ad’raba, it would be idiotic to expect the Shulchan Aruch to call something Assur during Sefirah that is already Assur. Do people want him to have made it “double Assur”?
Sam, you’re correct, but just for fun, I’d like to point out:
‘???? ???? ???? ?”? ?”?, ???? ???? ???? ?”? ?
What I never got is how we can say that recorded music is a kli shiur, and therefore assur during sefira, but still say that it constitutes kol isha… What is it, a kli or a person?
Sam2:
What would the Halachic argument be for saying hallel (with a bracha; without a bracha its just Tehillim)? And as MDG pointed out, if we were to celebrate anything, it should be the end of the war, not the beginning…
Also, even if there would be a convincing Halachic justification, then how can anyone use that reasoning for days other then 5 Iyar itself?
Those who do sit in the Succah on Shmini Atzeres are in direct violation of the how most (all?) Rishonim understand the Gemara, and should keep eating in the sukah, because they have on whom to rely and minhag is oker halachah.
I wouldn’t call following Shulchan Aruch being oker halachah. The Tur and Bais Yosef both bring the Rosh (same idea as Tosafos) but don’t make any chilluk for weather, and certainly not for how common it is to eat in a sukkah when there’s no mitzvah. The point is not taking a survey of how common it is; essentially, as Yom Tov Sheini, there’s a chiyuv to sit, snd as long as it’s conceivable to be toleh sitting in the sukkah on it being pleasant, we do so. Lulav would be muktzeh, so it’s not conceivable.
What I never got is how we can say that recorded music is a kli shiur, and therefore assur during sefira, but still say that it constitutes kol isha… What is it, a kli or a person?
I assume you mean that recorded vocals are considered klei shir (some poskim hold that way, but many don’t), otherwise your question doesn’t make sense.
If you understand the issur of kol isha as based on hirhur, it makes sense to not limit it to what is technically kol isha.
BTW, ???? ?????? has an interesting discussion on ???? ?????? ????.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46442&st=&pgnum=401
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46438&st=&pgnum=326
DY
I didnt really mean they are being “oker halacha”
However as you correctly point out “snd as long as it’s conceivable to be toleh sitting in the sukkah on it being pleasant, we do so”
Obviously there is an element of subjectivity there. But to me it doent seem conceivable to be toleh sitting in the sukkah on it being pleasant, it is obvious that by sitting in the sukkah you are announcing “today might be chol” no less than shuckling lulav would. From Tosfos and other Rishonim this was vclearly not the case in their day/locale. However in 21st century new york I have never seen people sitting outdoors for a meal in late October.
I dont really mean those who do what the shukachan aruch says are “oker halacha” I am sure they caim it is conceivable, and given that the stimas of shulchan Aruch does say that way, Of course you have what to rely on.
Thanks for the nitei gavriel. I actually flipped through it over Shabbos most interesting was the end of the tesuvah where he lists those who didnt eat and the (much longer list of ) those who did, I was surprised to see many chasidish rebbes among those who ate in the sukkah including satmar, pupa and munkatch.
mw13
“And as MDG pointed out, if we were to celebrate anything, it should be the end of the war, not the beginning..”
As i pointed out, this is incorrect since the battles against Yevanim did not end with Chanukah
“as MDG pointed out, if we were to celebrate anything, it should be the end of the war”
For Chanukah we don’t observe the end of the war, which was almost 20 years later.
“then how can anyone use that reasoning for days other then 5 Iyar itself?”
Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l agreed that IF you are to say Hallel for Y”H then you may ONLY say it on 5 Iyar. My rav seems to be the only one who followed him on that one.
There may be some community somewhere that follows the All Music is Asur All The Time but I have never found one. Anyone know of any?
However in 21st century new york I have never seen people sitting outdoors for a meal in late October.
Why would you assume it was at all common in other eras/locales?
You are describing a conceivable t’liyah differently than I am.
charlie: There is a decent (I don’t think it’s great, but decent) case to be made for music to be Muttar during Sefira. My point is that the argument of “the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t say it’s Assur in the Siman about Sefiras Ha’Omer” is retarded.
mw: To make a long story short, there are two tracks taken. One is that it’s a Nes that involved the Hatzalah of Klal Yisrael, which necessitates Hallel Mid’rabannan (Gemara in Pesachim).
The second is that there is a Chiyuv (possibly Min HaTorah) to say Hallel for a Nes that leads to the Binyan Beis Hamikdash. (There’s a Teshuvah in the Chassam Sofer about this re: Channukah and Purim.) R’ Schachter uses this notion and says that because we have a Havtacha from HKBH that we won’t lose Eretz Yisrael a third time (he quotes a Gemara and a Ramban Al HaTorah for this), then we know that Yom Ha’atzma’ut will eventually lead up to a Binyan Beis Hamikdash. And similar to Purim, where it was a holiday even before we reached the eventual Binyan Beis Hamikdash, so too by Yom Ha’atzma’ut we are obligated to give Shevach and say Hallel.
The Rabbanut felt that avoiding Chillul Shabbos gives them reason to move the day (I think most in the Rabbanut hold of track #2 because of R’ Herzog).
Sam2:
One is that it’s a Nes that involved the Hatzalah of Klal Yisrael, which necessitates Hallel Mid’rabannan (Gemara in Pesachim)
The second is that there is a Chiyuv (possibly Min HaTorah) to say Hallel for a Nes that leads to the Binyan Beis Hamikdash
Even if I were to accept the premise of these arguments, IMHO they raise more questions than they answer. Off the top of my head – Why can’t the same be said of the Yom Kippur War? And why would these arguments be applicable to any day besides 5 Iyar?
mw: The second one is pretty solid, I think. 5 Iyar was the day that started the move towards the Binyan Beis Hamikdash. Like I said, I don’t know how they get to move it.
mw13: We also say hallel on 28 Iyar-the day of re-unification of Jerushalaim.As a matter of fact, there probably is more reason to say hallel on 28 iyar than Yom Ha-atzmaut.
Contrary to popular belief, R’ Schachter holds that there is no reason to say Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim. He says that HKBH promised us that we’ll never lose Eretz Yisrael again, but there is no such promise about Yerushalayim. Therefore, we can’t say Hallel because it’s not guaranteed to lead towards the Binyan Beis Hamikdash.
The first time I was an Avel, I did not listen to any kinds of music. I found the year very, very difficult. Listening to (Jewish) music elevated my soul at the oddest times; cooking, driving, cleaning. I longed to listen.
The second time I was an Avel, I asked my Rav, he told me I could not listen to music, ie: instruments, BUT voices are not, strictly, music and I could listen to acapella voices, which I did. Listening to the voices my father loved, often brought me to tears and eventually peace.
It is not such a simple issue it deserves a serious conversation with your Rav.
Sam2: You do realize that the Israeli Rabbanut and the vast majority of dati leumi Poskim disagree with the view you just mentioned? As a matter of fact, they maintain that on Jom jershalaim you should say hallel with a brocho-unlike Yom Ha-atazmaut where there are different opinions.
*Jom Ha-atazmaut
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