- This topic has 25 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Mutar?
yes.
What is in exercise that would change the Issur
What exactly is the issur?
Exercise definitely usser. listening to music ask your lor.
Talmud: See the Beis Yosef in OC 560. If the music actually helps you exercise, it should be okay without question.
Mutar according to the S”A. My rav confirmed it and even said that there is no issur to attend live musical performances.
He did say that it is asur to get married during this period, a halachah honored largely in the breach.
Off topic:
2good2btrue = “Exercise definitely usser”
The Ramba”m actually recommends doing exercise, so are you more frum and smarter than the Ramba”m?
I side (surprisingly) with charliehall on this one. The original “takonoh” was not to get married and not to cut hair/shave. I am not sure why and when the custom of not listening to music arrived. It may have been a colloraly from engagements that included music and weedings, of course. but it is never mentioned in shulchan aruch that listening to music is ossur. A recent chumroh.
But what of this: “a halacha [not to get married] honored largely in the breach” How is that ? Don’t you think,charliehall, that people follow this precept?
“Don’t you think,charliehall, that people follow this precept?”
I’ve been to a lot of weddings during Sefirat HaOmer.
I’ve been to a lot of weddings during Sefirat HaOmer.
So have most of us; before Rosh Chodesh, on Lag B’omer, and in recent years, it’s become more common to make a chasunah after Lag B’omer. The ones making the wedding are not keeping their aveilus during the period in which the wedding takes place.
RabbiofBerlin,
Shaving/haircuts wasn’t part of the original takanah, it was added after the First Crusade.
Mutar!
ROB: How wrong you are. The Shulchan Aruch had to need to Asser listening to music during Sefirah because he already said it was Assur all year-round. The Poskim only began discussing the Issur of listening to music during Sefirah recently because it was only recently (relatively) that people began to ignore the year-round Issur on music.
rabbiofberlin- corrolary. Thats a funny typo 🙂
sam2: you are correct in saying that-theoretically- one cannot listen to music all year round (shulchan aruch OC 560-3) but this minhag been ignored for many years and certainly you do not see many people follow those customs today in the middle of the year. However, in the shulachan aruch on sefira only two “minhagim” are mentioned: not to arrange weddings and not to cut one’s hair. (beards are another topic) See orach chaim 493. from what I have gathered, I did not see any acharonim discuss the laxity of listening to music all year round and THEREFORE- it must be banned during sefira. In other words, there is no specific issur or minhag concerning music during the sefira that derives from that all year round minhag.
to benigmuman: As the whole concept of aveilus during sefira only started with the geonim- it would not surprise me that the issur of cutting hair was introduced a little bit later by the rishonim. I have no way of checking that.In shulchan aruch, they are mentioned as equals.
ROB, Sam2 correctly debunked your “proof” that according to the Shulchan Aruch it would be muttar to listen to music during sefirah.
If we’re left only with minhag, then clearly the minhag is to asser during sefirah.
You can’t have it both ways – to matir during the year based on minhag, yet reject the minhag to asser during sefirah.
R’ Moshe in O.C. 1, 166 clearly assers instrumental music during sefirah even according to the opinion that it’s muttar during the year.
DaasYochid; HUH?
FACT : most people -today- do not observe the se’if in shulchan aruch 493- about not listening to music all year round. Whether this is right or wrong is a topic for another day.
FACT: the geonim did NOT say that you could not listen to music during sefira. Their ONLY takonoh was not to have weddings and not cutting hair.
ERGO- what you want now is to EXPAND the takonoh of the geonim. Well, sorry , but that is a chumro that you may take upon yourself. It is not part of the takonos for sefira and cannot be forced uopn the tsibbur. QED.
ROB: First of all, Ben is right. Second of all, the Issur of listening to music during Sefirah is mentioned as far back as the Pri Megadim, which, historically, is when music became accessible and popular with the average person. Thus, we already see that when people started listening to music, the Poskim began to apply the Ikkar Hadin of all year round to, at the very least, Sefirah.
Also, your entire perspective on this is wrong. All the Nihugei Aveilus of Sefirah are Minhagim, not Dinim. The Minhag just about everywhere became to avoid music during Sefirah (so some are Noheg to only listen to slow music and some, but very few, will listen to recorded). Just because one Minhag is older does not change the fact that music became one of the main Nihugei Aveilus of Sefirah. It doesn’t matter how recently this Minhag started. It barely matters why. The fact is that the Minhag is to not do it and you can’t change that.
ROB, I don’t have much to add to what Sam wrote, but to say that you’re arguing on R’ Moshe, and I know of no one who agrees with you (although there is a daas yochid who holds that recorded music isn’t part of the minhag).
Writing QED at the end doesn’t change the fact that your entire argument is a logical fallacy.
to sam2 and DaasYochid: “bemechilas kevod toraschem”- with apologies to your erudition, you have said nothing that contradicts what I say. To quote a Pri Megodim (which I will try to check upon) proves my point, rather than yours. The Pri megodim (as you know) lived barely two hundred years ago-way past the geonim (as you know) and , if indeed he said it, he initiated a new chumro for sefira. You are welcome to follow him but how can you make the tsibbur follow that chumro??
You are saying that the Pri Megodim applied the “ikkar hadin’ to sefira. Again, ‘ikkar chosser min hasefer’. I have yet to see anyone who maintains that the din of ORach chaim 493 (no music all year) is suddeny applied to sefira now. On the contrary, any of the newfangled Poskim who prohibit music during sefira maintain it is part of sefira.
Sam2- you are making assumptions about music and instruments and different times. These are your assumptions,certainly not proven. May I also remind you that there were plenty of musical instruments durign the geonim’s times-yet nowhere is this mentioned in their minhagim for sefira.
Lastly, to assert now that there is an ironclad “minhag’ because the aveilus of sefira is based on minhagim is putting the cart before the horse. I have no problem with anyone who wnats to assume this new ‘minhag” but why do I have to accept it?It is utterly wrong to say that, just because some people make a new minhag, we must all accept it! The gemoro itself allows for minhagim to be different in different places.
And ,as far as R”moshe zz’l, are we bound by any new chumro? Check Manhattan and see whether they have an eiruv on the West Side…then come back t me and tell that we must all follow R’Moshe’s psak.
You’re arguing on R’ Moshe yourself despite not having any recognized posek on your side?
And, BTW, when the tzibur is mekabel a chumra, yes, it is binding on individuals.
ROB: First of all, the year-round Issur of music is 560:3. What the Pri Megadim is saying (though he doesn’t say this, it’s implied) is that with our newfound listening to music all year comes an Issur during Sefirah. That is also clearly implied when R’ Moshe mentions it as well as SHU”T Tzitz Eliezer 15:33. Sefirah is a level above the rest of the year in terms of the Issur of music.
And don’t just ignore my history. Study it. The ability to listen to music (professional music) was something reserved for the upper classes of society until, you guessed it, about 250 years ago (this did not hold true in Arab lands, I think). In fact, that is probably the reason for the Issur. It’s an Aveilus on the Mikdash because we shouldn’t act like royalty when we don’t have a Mikdash (the current lack of this function of music, by the way, is a Limud Z’chus on why we seem to ignore this Issur). The Pri Megadim, who was the first to mention this, historically came when professional music became something popular, not just reserved for the upper classes.
to sam2- First , apologies for mentioning the wrong siman (see my first posting where I pointed to 560-3). You are developing a novel idea that music was not played for the masses until the late 1700’s. This flies in the face of reality, as there was music played forever, including with musical instruments.I have not had the chance to look at the Pri megodim but even you admit that he only “implies” it. My argument, by the way, is not for concerts and ‘simchas’- that is mentioned in various acahronim and I could understand that a concert or a simcha with music could be prohibited during sefira- with its extra dimension of aveilus. (although the geonim and rishonim did not mention it!!)
My problem is with the mundane listening to a CD or a cassette (I date myself) or shutting down the radio if -G-d forbid!-a note or two is played. That, to me, makes no sense at all. The aveilus of sefira is a minhag of the geonim- evne though they should be days of joy-and they never envisioned this extra layer of aveilus-otherwise they woudl surely have mentioned it! (there were weddings in their days too, after all).it is -to my mind- another manifestation of the extra chumros that are imposed today. It is not my cup of tea. “hovo delo lossif alo” We have enough chumros , let’s not add anymore!
As to DaasYochid: see above. And, by the way, I know that R”Moshe zz’l allowed chazanut to be played over the radio waves during sefira. so, even he felt that a blanket issur of music is not the rule.
ROb: From Wikipedia:
The music of the Classical Period (1750 A.D. to 1830 A.D.) looked to the art and philosophy of Ancient Greece and Rome, to the ideals of balance, proportion and disciplined expression. It has a lighter, clearer and considerably simpler texture, and tended to be almost voicelike and singable. New genres were discovered. The main style was the homophony,[20] where prominent melody and accompaniment are clearly distinct.
Importance was given to instrumental music. It was dominated by further evolution of musical forms initially defined in the Baroque period: the sonata, the concerto, and the symphony. Others main kinds were trio, string quartet, serenade and divertimento. The sonata was the most important and developed form. Although Baroque composers also wrote sonatas, the Classical style of sonata is completely distinct. All of the main instrumental forms of the Classical era were based on the dramatic structure of the sonata.
One of the most important evolutionary steps made in the Classical period was the development of public concerts. The aristocracy would still play a significant role in the sponsorship of musical life, but it was now possible for composers to survive without being its permanent employees. The increasing popularity led to a growth in both the number and range of the orchestras. The expansion of orchestral concerts necessitated large public spaces. As a result of all these processes, symphonic music (including opera, ballet and oratorio) became more extroverted.
The best known composers of Classicism are Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, Christoph Willibald Gluck, Johann Christian Bach, Joseph Haydn, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Ludwig van Beethoven and Franz Schubert. Beethoven and Schubert are also considered to be composers in evolution towards Romanticism.
Romantic Music (c. 1810 A.D. to 1900 A.D.) turned the rigid styles and forms of the Classical era into more passionate and expressive pieces. It attempted to increase emotional expression and power to describe deeper truths or human feelings. The emotional and expressive qualities of music came to take precedence over technique and tradition. Romantic composers grew in idiosyncrasy, and went further in the syncretism of different art-forms (such as literature), history (historical figures), or nature itself with music. Romantic love was a prevalent theme in many works composed during this period. In some cases the formal structures from the classical period were preserved, but in many others existing genres, forms, and functions were improved. Also, new forms were created that were deemed better suited to the new subject matter. Opera and ballet continued to evolve.[17]
[17]
There’s a lot in here, but I bolded the two most important lines.
sam2- look at my previous posting where I- albeit reluctantly- acquiesce that public concerts could be included in the showing of aveilus during the sefira. You wil also find that the acharonim prohibit LIVE, public music during engagements. (Methinks the mishne berurah writes the same) My “beef’ is with prohibiting ANY display or listening to music during this period. (This, after all, was the original question of the poster-music during exsrcise).That- I submit- is a vast expansion of ‘aveilus” in an area that was never,ever considered to be part of the minhagim established by the geonim.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.