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As rebyidd23 said, I never said anywhere about putting snow in the gutter. Why would I do that? The curb is much closer. If I would have to clear the huge amount of snow for a parking spot- note, the snowplows plow the snow from the streets there- it would inevitably end up back on the sidewalk.
DY
I care, I make sure my walk is shoveled as soon as I can
So you care about not getting sued. If you cared about other people not getting hurt, you’d shovel any unshoveled walks you see.
zd, you probably did not understand. This has nothing to do with bein adam lchavero. It is not you hezek, you did not put the snow there, and the area does not belong to you, or you could just rope of the area. If you want to be nice and shovel YOUR sidewalk, why not do it for anyone and everyone else. What makes your sidewalk your bain adam lchavero. The government makes it your responsibility, it is a responsibility to the city, not to the people. (I myself don’t own, I shovel regardless, neighbors’ too)
I cannot physically shovel other peoples walks, Mine is enough for me.
Some of the neighborhood kids shovel peoples walks, I used to do it as a teen for extra money. You dont have to do it for free.
Where is the Asifa for Shoveling snow and making sure nobody gets hurt
People here are using every excuse in the book why they dont have to shovel , Imagine if you gave the same excuses why you missed davening.
And for the record. I fell on the Ice and Snow because someone didnt shovel , I couldnt walk for a week, I couldnt even get up the stairs in my house and had to sleep on a chair. I then limped for a month and people who know me said my walking has changed since the fall
Of course you don’t have to. If not for the law, you wouldn’t have to do yours either. Because without the law, it’s public property.
That’s horrible; I remember that.
Isn’t that what made you join the cr?
I am responsible for the sidewalk its the Law and in fact if the sidewalk is broken the City can make you fix it at YOUR expense and they will put a lien on the property until you fix it.
(I know people this happend to)
DY
On a side note, Several rabbis who know me were orginally against shoveling snow on Shabbos , but when they saw what happend they changed their opinion because of it and they realized the whole issue of Sakana is not a theoretical issue and people really can get hurt.
Again, the snow is not your (or my) fault. The city makes you do it, it’s between the city and the landowner, NOT the people. Caring for another fellow does not stop at the end of your sidewalk. So if you’re shoveling because of bain adam lachaveiro, why not do the whole block.
(I know people this happend to)
So do I. I’m not arguing what the law is, I’m arguing what would be moral without the law (as I stated earlier in the thread, but you probanmvly didn’t see).
I don’t think it’s halachically considered a sakana; surely they wouldn’t allow using a snow blower (assuming a shovel wasn’t available).
DY and LF: With that premise, we can assume that if someone gives tzedakah, then they are doing it only for themselves if they don’t give also to everyone else who is in need.
If I help one person, I must help anyone who needs to my help, otherwise I am being selfish when I help that one individual.
Likewise, the fact that ZD tries as best he can that nobody gets injured from the snow in front of his house, has nothing to do with being a mentch. In order to really do it for others, he must spend the whole day shoveling the whole city. And why stop in his city. Why not the whole country?
Most people are not physically able to shovel the whole block unless you have a snow blower
And DY: Being that the city does not clean the sidewalks (like in Canada), and rather requires the homeowners to clear away the snow in front of their homes, so that it should be safe for passerby’s, those that don’t are lacking in mentchlichtkeit.
Trust, that is exactly what I’m writing. Clearing one’s own (governmentally acquired) property, is not an issue of bein adam lachaveiro, it is just a government required activity. to my humble opinion.
Bain adam lachaveiro would be to clear city streets, put up signs all around that say “WARNING – SNOW !!” or distribute leaflets “Walking in Snow for Dummies”
Clearing one’s own (governmentally acquired) property, is not an issue of bein adam lachaveiro, it is just a government required activity. to my humble opinion.
The story is told of how the Chofetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan, was once stopping by a pharmacy, and told the pharmacist how much he envied him. The man was taken aback, and asked what there was to envy? The Chofetz Chaim explained he envied the pharmacist his many opportunities in the course of each day to sell medicines and save lives. The pharmacist responded that he did it to make a living, not out of any altruistic motive. Hearing that, the Chofetz Chaim said to him: “You have to have intention that ‘I am coming to fulfill a mitzvah (Torah commandment) of chesed (kindness) to others and saving lives.’ The profit-making side of it does not devalue the mitzvah, as long as you have the proper intention.”
I don’t think you can decide what ZD’s intentions are. Even if it’s government mandated, he can still get a mitzvah in ben adam l’chavero for clearing away the snow in front of his house if he has the right intentions.
BTW
If you DONT Shovel , you cannot be sued as its considered an act of god (Like a tree branch falling on someone) , however if you shovel and a person falls you can be sued because you didnt shovel properly.
However the City can give you a ticket for not shoveling
If you DONT Shovel , you cannot be sued as its considered an act of god (Like a tree branch falling on someone) , however if you shovel and a person falls you can be sued because you didnt shovel properly.
However the City can give you a ticket for not shoveling
If that is the case, I would never shovel my walk. It is absolutely worth the possibility of a ticket to not risk lawsuits.
I don’t think you can decide what ZD’s intentions are.
I was using ZD as a rhetorical example, I didn’t mean him personally.
However the City can give you a ticket for not shoveling
Right. For some reason, though, nobody would get as upset at me if I got a ticket for a recycling violation.
Popa, are you by any chance a law professor?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/list-the-houses-who-dont-shovel-here#post-512238
I was using ZD as a rhetorical example, I didn’t mean him personally.
Of course. And there are plenty of people who clear away the snow in front of their house in order to make it safe for passerby’s, not only because it is the law.
Taken off a different site… best option:
Taken off a different site… best option:
lav davka. Maybe you didn’t display the sign well enough? Maybe it got covered in snow? Maybe the person who slipped can’t read?
Besides, nothing like admitting outright that your sidewalk is dangerous.
If a “slippery when wet” sign is useless, department stores would only mop after hours. They don’t. They use the sign. Just make sure you have it clearly visible.
Gamanit:
I wrote that earlier:
..put up signs all around that say “WARNING – SNOW !!” or distribute leaflets “Walking in Snow for Dummies”
“Some studies have proven that snow or ice can become slippery, thereby causing one who steps on it, to slip and fall. While we don’t know exactly how it works, studies proves that such has been the case for quite a long time. When walking outside and snow is suspected of being present, one should tend to look where he/she’s going…
No department store in its right mind would mop during hours when it is open, unless it is:
A. open 24 hours
B. the floors get so dirty it is worth the risk
C. something spilled
I can’t remember the last time I was at a store or public place other than my yeshiva and saw them stam mopping during normal hours.
But you could be right. I don’t really know enough about this.
I would also like to add, it is a lack of hakoras hatov to decide a person doesn’t have the right intentions when shoveling the snow in front of their property. And right intentions or not, we must have hakoras hatov to those who do shovel.
There is many many people who were injured in the past month, some seriously. So anyone who shovels is doing all of us a favor, making it easier for us and our loved ones to get places safely. And putting up signs of warnings is pretty much nonsense.
Every time it snows, kids with shovels appear at my front door and I always pay them generously. I can’t believe that there aren’t kids in need of spending money in other frum communities.
I would also like to add, it is a lack of hakoras hatov to decide a person doesn’t have the right intentions when shoveling the snow in front of their property. And right intentions or not, we must have hakoras hatov to those who do shovel.
I absolutely agree with that (especially since I either shovel my sidewalk or have someone do it for me).
My issue is with those who don’t look at it as something that deserves hakaras hatov, but rather, look at someone who doesn’t shovel as a total “ferd”.
So I was so curious about this, that I came to brooklyn last night to see for myself.
And you know what? You really are a bunch of slobs. I had to park on top of a huge pile of ice, just because some lazy slob couldn’t be bothered to shovel the space where HIS car was. I know the street isn’t yours, but when you get up from a public toilet, do you just leave it unflushed because it isn’t your toilet? (Don’t answer that, I’ve been to your NY toilets in the subway also.)
some lazy slob couldn’t be bothered to shovel the space where HIS car was.
You’re lucky he didn’t shovel it out. Some people get very possesive of parking spaces which they shoveled out. Had the guy come back and seen your car there, he might have slashed your tires.
I know of a crazy lady who thinks that the parking spot she shoveled out belongs to her the entire winter.
That last line can’t be true. They locked all the subway bathrooms, which explains those electricution accidents.
I know of a crazy lady who thinks that the parking spot she shoveled out belongs to her the entire winter.
In other cities that actually is the way it works. You put your lawn chairs and junk out in the spot you shoveled. It works, because there are enough spots on the street for everyone to be parked at the same time.
Yeah, but she thought it was hers even after all the snow had melted.
Also, mah nafshach. If there aren’t enough spots, she has no right to tell me that I can’t park in a public spot. Do I have to drive around the neighborhood until I find a spit which nobody shoveled out? If there are enough spots, as you say, then who cares anyway? Why us it worth the tircha of having to move lawn chairs?
V’chi teima it’s closer, ayin my first tayna, plus, she didn’t swork any harder just because it’s in a more convenient location.
If there are enough spots, as you say, then who cares anyway? Why us it worth the tircha of having to move lawn chairs?
Tragedy of the commons, v’dok.
Because then nobody shovels the spots.
I read an article about Councilmans Greenfield proposed to law making mandatory shoveling with 4 hours after a snowstorm.
A few people askes about Shabbos
I can tell you the following, When I fell not only was my shabbos ruined. 3 Hatzolahs guys shabbos was interupted (and their familys lunch was ruined) as they came on the call. My entire familys Shabbos was ruined as well.
So you lack of shoveling can affect people who didnt even walk past there
edited
Popa, they would shovel just enough spots to fit all the cars.
ZD, listen, I really do feel very bad about what happened to you, especially now that you say the effects are still there, but it’s got nothing to do with Shabbos.
1) They should have shoveled before Shabbos
2) If they didn’t, common sense dictates not to walk there. The reason the law is as you stated earlier is because if someone did shovel, it gives the false impression that it’s safe to walk there. If it wasn’t shoveled, the owner is not subject to a lawsuit because it’s the fault of the pedestrian for not avoiding the area.
The property owner is liable for a summons not because he caused a dangerous situation. As you said, that was an act of G-d. He is liable for not providing the public access to passage. That’s very different.
DY:
They wouldn’t shovel at all, because when you come to take your car out, you have no reason to shovel since somebody else is going ot take that spot. And when come back, there is no reason to shovel the new spot becuase you’re only parking there once.
That’s why nobody shovels in NY. And why nobody would shovel in other cities either if they couldn’t save spots.
I’m not sure the insurance companies care about the lomdus of the situation, the person who got hurt certainly doesnt care. all they care about is who is responsible to shovel so they know who to sue.
DY, as was explained by a law professor, when you don’t shovel you didn’t cause anything, but if you shoveled then whatever condition it is in is your fault. That is why this professor doesn’t shovel. It is worth it for him to pay the fine and not get sued. So it’s not about fooling people, but about the fact that now it is considered your action.
I could list a lot of houses that are not shoveling now.
I was in brooklyn for shabbos, and did not see a single house that needed shoveling. Just saying. I don’t know what you’re all in a tizzy about.
HaLeiVi, that might indeed be the legal reasoning, but it makes no sense. If my shoveling made it less dangerous, even if it’s still a little bit dangerous, it’s not my doing.
Popa, nobody’s in a tizzy about the houses which were shoveled.
DY:
Welcome to America – since when does legal reasoning make sense?
I think someone earlier made a good argument that no one really responded to.
Even if you only HAVE to shovel ‘cuz of the law, and not a previous moral obligation, its obvious that as a community we’re going to do something to make streets passable. Now the method is through law-enforced(?) private shoveling, like it or not. Today people are having a hard time because of you. Fits the bill for ‘Yashrus’ in my book.
I agree in priciple to the “yashrus” argument, but I think there are two nafka minas between that argument and the “previous moral obligation” argument. Firstly, I think the level of anger shown is unjustified. Human nature is to find someone to blame for your issues, and when someone is inconvenienced, and certainly when injured, the tendency is to want to blame someone. The homeowner is the convenient and obvious target for essentially shirking what is not a true moral obligation, only an expected and proper chessed.
Also, I don’t think it’s reasonable to blame someone who is physically unable to shovel for not finding an expensive alternative. Do we really blame senior citizens and handicapped people for having their walks unshoveled? I would think not.
Popa, That’s why nobody shovels in NY.
That’s was not my observation. What do people whose cars were snowed in do to get them out?
DY – Fully agree to first point. Though Yashrus is ‘mechayev’, more than just a chesed.
Also, the extent of the possible damage shows the importance of this particular yashrus as opposed to just the ability to help someone.
And so, as to second point, not sure if I really think they’re off the hook (if its a reasonable expense for them).
Logician, being a chiyuv is not mutually exclusive to being chessed, and I don’t just mean that you can get extra credit for an existing chiyuv by having in mind to help people; I mean that sometimes chessed becomes an obligation. This is likely such a case, but because it originates as a chessed, there are exceptions. As to what they are, AYLOR.
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