- This topic has 108 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
It is outrageous that there are homes in Flatbush who STILL have not shoveled, from the very first snow storm. It is a chutzpah beyond belief, and the community needs to start exposing them.
Enough is enough! How many people need to slip and break their legs? What is wrong with people? And don’t give me any excuses that they may be elderly people, or the worst excuse is that they are away on vacation.
ENOUGH! EXPOSE THEM HERE!
Here are two:
Corner of East 24th Street and Avenue M. Home is on corner, owner didn’t touch the snow and ice ONCE.
edited by request
Please add your locations.
Assur Loshon Harah
dan lekaf zechus
My house doesn’t shovel. It just sits there looking pretty with all the snow on it and waits for me to shovel. I really have to teach my house to take over… It would make it so much easier for me.
Owners obviously couldn’t care less about a fellow Yid. Or a fellow human being, for that matter.
It might be interesting to expose them by posting their names, but that may not be such a good idea.
Agree, though, that this unusual winter is bringing us (in addition to all that white, now blackish greyish brown stuff) a new insight into which of our neighbors are beneath any semblance of mentshlichkeit.
Also, please add locations of illegal driveways.
Then, feel free to take the snow from the unshoveled walks, and put it in front of the illegal driveways.
I heard from a prominent posek that you are allowed to call 311 on people who don’t shovel their walk, after you warn them that you will.
I made up that I heard from another prominent posek that you can consider the guy who called a moser, etc., etc.
I further made up re first prominent posek that he said you edited
Was waiting for one idiot to yell “Lasho Hara”.
Did YOUR wife slip and break her leg there?
Obviously not.
There is a chiyuv to warn people to not walk there to prevent them from falling.
The person who started this thread should be blessed!
What good does posting here do? Just call 311. It’s certainly allowed, it’s not as if you’re reporting an illegal driveway (which is also OK), you’re reporting a safety hazard.
Really!? You have to let people know where there is snow on the ground so that they shouldn’t walk there? Ok. Here’s my warning:
If you see snow on the ground, it is most likely that there is snow on the ground. Be careful. The same goes for ice.
Did YOUR wife slip and break her leg there?
Did your husband end up on jail for assault with a deadly weapon and resisting arrest after the city inspectors came and he fought the poritz’s men off with a schach mat? (and a bear costume)
What good does posting here do? Just call 311. It’s certainly allowed, it’s not as if you’re reporting an illegal driveway (which is also OK), you’re reporting a safety hazard.
Well, I know a posek said you could after you warn them. But who gave you permission to?
I heard from a reliable person that if snow isn’t shoveled it becomes a Bor b’reshus harabim (ditch in a public thoroughfare)
This then becomes an obligation on every individual because the halacha is everybody has an obligation to remove a bor.
So start shoveling.
FYI ask your posek but you might be able charge the homeowner for the cost of removal of the snow, even though the homeowner didn’t put the snow there.
One could very well argue that when there is snow on the ground for well over a few hours, they are considered warned. They have a social contract to get rid of the snow, it’s probably considered as if it’s a bor berushas harabim.
How about a list of people who pass by a snow-covered walk where the homeowners need help, and complain instead of lifting a finger? (or a shovel)
They have a social contract to get rid of the snow
I never signed it. Besides, I’m too busy posting on YWN to shovel my stupid walk. So sue me. And next time walk down a different block.
🙂
If I didn’t put the snow there then it is not my Bor Bereshus Harabim. Moreover, even an actual Bor, if I made it in Reshus Harabim, it is not mine and I would not be liable if not for the fact that the Torah made it as mine — concerning liabilities.
Actually, getting rid of the snow is the city’s job. They put fines on homeowners to get them to do their job. You can’t sue a homeowneer who didn’t shovel his snow, although you can sue him if he did shovel it and caused it to become slippery. I heard of a law professor who purposely doesn’t touch his snow. He says it is worth the fine not to get sued.
In Halacha, using the Svara that is Mechayev the Baal Hakerem for the Hezek since it was his responsibility to move back, perhaps the homeowner is Mechuyav in the Hezek once it became his job to do it.
Gamanit, my house too! It makes me drag myself out and shovel while I feel like yelling “It’s your driveway, house!” but I still don’t entirely like this loshon hora thread.
For all you complainers, how many of you can honestly say you ever thought about the elderly people on your block, or the almana or divorcee who can’t do it by themselves? Did you ever think to help them?
I’m not yelling lashon hara (though I’m not sure where the to’eles is). I would just not want that responsibility on my head. So just wondering YWN’s system. Maybe their gut is usually good enough. Here…
perhaps the homeowner is Mechuyav in the Hezek once it became his job to do it
Sounds plausible to me. I don’t think it’s inherently the homeowner’s responsibility to shovel the snow on the sidewalk in front of his house any more than it’s his responsibility to plow the snow on the street in front of his house.
Daas Yochid: I am totally shocked with your reply! Who do you think should shovel the snow or ice in front of a homeowners house????
All I know is that it is difficult (and dangerous) for my pregnant wife to stumble around in the snow and ice and that some people should be more considerate.
A maamin and jbaldy22, the question of responsibility is twofold; practically, and theoretically.
Practically, it is the homeowner’s, because it’s the law.
I sense an anger here towards negligent homeowners that suggests that there’s a feeling that it’s inherently, even were there no such law, his obligation, and this is what I question.
In Montreal, the city cleans the sidewalks. They obviously don’t feel it’s the natural obligation of the homeowner, and I don’t see why they’re wrong.
A maamin, you’re shocked at my comment and ask who should be responsible. Why do you assume that anyone is responsible? Just because it’s in front of my house, and just because jbaldy22’s wife (b’shaah tova!) has a hard time, doesn’t make it my responsibility. If it’s dangerous, then she shouldn’t go out, unless her husband precedes her with a shovel and ice chopper. Why is the snow and ice which is hindering her, being in close proximity to my house, make it my responsibility to clean? I’ll ask again; would you say the same of the snow in the street? If proximity is the reason, it should be no different.
And, FTR, I do make sure the walk in front of my home is clear, I’m just questioning the assumption that there is some type of natural obligation.
It is a loshon hora thread. However, jbaldy22 should shovel or hire shovelers.
A FERD bleibt a FERD!
A SHIKUR bleibt a SHIKUR!
All houses are incapable of shoveling. It is the people inside who are supposed to.
First of all b’shaah tova to you Mrs. Jbaldy22 (see thread about when to announce…)
I wanted to write along the lines of DY. I’m not a homeowner (gasp) so I don’t know what constitutes the homeowner’s property. Something not on one’s property is definitely not his obligation in any way to remove, more than cleaning the street. The question would only be if the government makes it your responsibility, then by rote of dena demalchusa, it may become your property, to actually be mechuyav in damages (in din Torah). And then maybe p’tur of reshus harabim won’t apply. – just thinking out loud – I leave it for the leading Rabbis and Talmudicians of the hallowed Yeshiva World CR to discuss and decide.
Daas Yochid: I do not see how you can prove your point. It is the responsibility of every homeowner to clean the walk way in front of their house. There is no reason to clean the street which does not belong to the home owner literally.When you buy a property there is a title search and you can see clearly what part of the land is yours.BESIDES MENTCHLICHKEIT, to care about your neighbors and all who will walk in front of your home!
Why is it my job to clear the public walk in front of my home? It’s enough that I provide it to you free of charge. How about I put bushes in it?
Really, I don’t get the personal anger at the people who don’t shovel the sidewalk in front of their house.
So the city has a law stating that you need to have a sidewalk there, and you need to keep it clear. Well, that’s for the city to enforce, at its choice. The fact that you as a pedestrian gets some third party benefit from the city’s requirements has nothing to do with us.
You don’t like the snow–you shovel it.
These ppl are maybe to old to shovel. If they are they should hire a kid to do it.My son made $400 shoveling.
im from out of town, but had occasion to be in Flatbush recently, after a big snow. Due to the poor shoveling habits, it was exceedingly difficult to find a place to park. I was driving a rental and did not want to skid into somebody else’s car. I finally did find a spot, creatively parking on top of a snow mountain, but blocking a driveway. The driveway was not shoveled, and did not appear to be an active driveway, judging by the amount of old snow in front of the drive and the sidewalk. In the morning, I came out and found a note, berating me for the chutzpah of blocking their driveway. Seriously? IF you wanted to use your driveway, then how about shoveling the driveway and the snow in front of the driveway, including the sidewalk as a “siman” that it is an active driveway. And maybe you and your “kind” neighbors could find it in your heart to shovel your walks and your parking spots, too. You never know, the broken limb and/or the property damage that you prevent may just be your own!
I grew up two doors away from a shul. A Rebbe/teacher of my brother lived one block from the shul in the other direction. Every snow, my brother shoveled straight from our house to his Rebbe’s.
My neighbor snow blows the walk of an elderly lady down the street. And does the whole sidewalk in between (as a favor, not just to pass through)
When we and our neighbors shovel, if the other hasn’t, we do each others walks.
It’s your choice to be a stickler for letter of the law, or to be a mentsch.
imamom- seriously? I should shovel out parking space? Where am I supposed to put the snow? It’s enough I do the sidewalk.
Gamanit, whatever you do, please do not put snow in the gutter. Parking is hard enough as it is. Just make a path on the sidewalk and leave the snow near the curb. Preferably, make a path to the street as well.
A maamin, the sidewalk is mine? Okay, then I do not let anybody walk on it.
Now nobody has the right to complain if I don’t shovel it.
dear mods:
I know one of the homeowners
The person became an AlMANA this year. Yesterday her thirteen year old son was chopping the ice like crazy even near where the street was and i could not understand why but now I realize. I think he even took a break from Yeshiva.
This is our fault as a community someone should have volunteered to help her son still at home.
I’m sure the shulchan aruch covers this topic as well. in nyc, the law does cover the topic of sidewalks and clearly delineates the responsibilities of property owners and the city as it relates to the sidewalk. i have yet to hear my rav state that the laws of nyc run contrary to halacha. im sure halacha covers the topic publicising those who dont shovel their snow. i assume ywn and its moderators are familiar with those halachos are approve only the content that is allowed by halacha.
Gamanit said nothing about putting snow in the gutter.
In Montreal, the city cleans the sidewalks. They obviously don’t feel it’s the natural obligation of the homeowner, and I don’t see why they’re wrong.
In most of Canada the sidewalk is not an easement over private property but part of public roadway.
The fact that you as a pedestrian gets some third party benefit from the city’s requirements has nothing to do with us.
Not really, the public has an easement on your sidewalk. The city’s responsibility is to protect that easement for the public.
Gamanit, whatever you do, please do not put snow in the gutter. Parking is hard enough as it is.
The gutter is a public place, just because you choose to leave a car there doesn’t mean that Gamanit can’t leave snow there.
Its illegal to throw snow in the street.You can get a ticket for that.I know a few people who did.
Imamom – Firstly, it is illegal to block someone’s driveway, however the owner of the driveway is legally allowed to park in front of his/her own driveway, therefore even if the driveway is not dug out, only the owner can park across it. Secondly, even if the above were not true, how do you know the owner wasn’t planning on clearing his driveway later that night? By parking overnight, you made that determination all on your own. VERY inconsiderate of you….. You’re lucky you weren’t towed.
LBK: IIRC, that law only applies to an active driveway. If the driveway is blocked such that it is not usable, anyone is allowed to park there. Ayein NYC parking code.
Also, you can tow my car, but how do you know I won’t break your windows. And you don’t know who I am. Careful when you play the power card.
Aha. So if it is my property I must ccclear it for you, but if it is public then I can actually put snow there… Hmm. We are beginning to make sense now.
In Montreal, the city cleans the sidewalks. They obviously don’t feel it’s the natural obligation of the homeowner, and I don’t see why they’re wrong.
In most of Canada the sidewalk is not an easement over private property but part of public roadway.
The fact that you as a pedestrian gets some third party benefit from the city’s requirements has nothing to do with us.
Not really, the public has an easement on your sidewalk. The city’s responsibility is to protect that easement for the public.
You’ve put the wagon before the horse.
The reason in Quebec they don’t insist that the sidewalk is yours is because they don’t need to, because they clean it anyhow.
In NY, they want to have it both ways. They want the homeowner to be responsible to maintain what is essentially public property, so they use the legal mechanism of saying it’s private property with a public easement. There’s nothing inherently correct in that legal maneuver, so although I do legally need to clean the sidewalk, it remains true that it’s not inherently my responsibility, it’s governmentally mandated.
Ayein NYC parking code.
Okay:
I’m sure snow and ice don’t qualify as a “fixed obstruction”, so I think LBK is correct.
farrockgrandma got it right. All the rest is commentary – bad commentary.
DY: That was my “chakira” earlier
This thread is so inappropriate. If you see a house that doesn’t shovel, walk in the street near there. And before you all jump down my throat about how dangerous it is to walk in the street, I know, but most of you do it anyhow on the way to and from shul on shabbat. A thread like this is PURE malice… and considering how many threads I read about why tragic things occur to Jews, consider a thread like this.
MODERATOR: Perhaps THIS thread you should remove?????
I am amazed how machmir some are on things
But really seem to dont care or hostile to Bein Adom L’Chavro. Its amazing someone can wear Rabbenu Tams Teffilin but not care that their neighbor might fall and break a bone on the snow and ice.
So why don’t you care, ZD?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.