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I agree with Nobody, even though I simultaneously sympathize with SJS’ position.
It *would* be helpful to compare and contrast, interview like, but I would say mentchlichkeit comes first, and the added benefit is not worth the loss in mentchlichkeit.
In the Shidduch scene, every dater enters a potential relationship with the attitude of: this could be my bashert; I’m going to focus and put everything I can into this relationship. Double dating does not facilitate this mindset, and I would say it does “use” the unknowing people involved.
Not to be matriach people, but just so that you’re understood, you may want to use quotes for double dating, or use a different term, like non-exclusive dating, etc.
“In the Shidduch scene, every dater enters a potential relationship with the attitude of: this could be my bashert; I’m going to focus and put everything I can into this relationship. Double dating does not facilitate this mindset, and I would say it does “use” the unknowing people involved. “
I hear your point, but soemtimes when someone goes on a first date with that mindset, one can come off as a little desperate. It’s just a date. And in the shidduch world, it’s just a meeting and nothing really more, in many cases. Sometimes the knowledge that there is another date with someone else arranged for the next day, takes some of that desperation pressure off. I know you probably will not agree with me, but it is only my opinion, it does not have to also be yours.
I personally wouldn’t date 2 girls at the same time (be officially committed to 2 girls at once), and if I found out that a girl I was dating was dating a dif guy at the same time, I would “dump” her. The excuse that some people have to compare dates, is not a persuasive one. If you need to compare guys/girls, just compare the guy or girl to the previous guys/girls he/she dated in the past. I do not understand why when comparing guys/girls it has to be between guys/girls who one is dating at the same time?!? That said, in my yeshiva 2 guys were officially dating the same girl at the same time, and they both found out about it, weren’t happy about it, and both dumped her at the same time! Although, it is only one story, and i’m sure there are others out there, where the guys/girls involved did not care, I would say most guys would not be happy if they found out the girl they were dating was also dating a dif. guy the same time.
On the other hand, once one side ends a shidduch, I believe both the guy and girl can look to date someone else right away, if they are ready. Therefore, there should be no problem with someone dating 2 people on the same day, as long as he/she is no longer going out with the first date.
If someone is dating two or more people at the same time, more than a few times each, there is something wrong witht he picture. But I really do not feel there is anything innately wrong in going out on Sunday with one guy and another on Wednesday. By Friday, the girl should know if she wants to go out again with either or neither of them. Once a few dates have occurred, there should not be that type of concurrent dating anymore. I guess this does not work in the rpesent Yeshivish system, but it worked pretty well in the 1970s and 80s, and no one was the worse for it. And we did not have any shidduch crisis then, either.
REMINDER: One date does not make it a relationship…
“but it worked pretty well in the 1970s and 80s”
Always wondered- was the world black and white in those days?
No, there was some color back then, mostly shades of gray.
a lady i know wants to set me up but she doesnt know the rules of shidduchim so she wants me to look into the guy at the same time as he’s looking into me. I always thought ppl go to the guy first and when he says “yes” thats when the girl looks into him. Should i look into him even though he hasnt said anything??
young: If you don’t mind, looking in to him & finding out nice things about him,
giving a yes to the Shadchan & then maybe receiving a no from the boys side.
Then go ahead! There’s nothing wrong with it. Just girls don’t want to
spend time finding out info, getting excited, & then being let down.
That’s why the boy usually looks into the girl first,
if he’s interested gives an answer so the ball’s
in the girl’s court & she gets to decide if she’s interested too,
w/o a chance of being turned down.
bein hasdorim, why is it preferable to prevent the girl from being turned down (rather than the guy)? Is it the emotional issue?
Joseph: yes, It’s also more mentchlich that way,
It’s not Geshmak for a guy to get turned down either,
but maybe it balances out for his ego knowing he got
Kedimah. He could’ve said no first! 🙂
sorry guys I poke fun at myself too with this!
I personally know of a girl that went out for some time and all of a sudden when she thought that things were heading up he got engaged. i cannot tell you how broken that kid was. ( she is BH engaged ) but it is extremely hurtful. the mother of the boy claims that she felt “funny” telling the other side no.
working: that guy is obviously a bum.
Joseph- you said
“bein hasdorim, why is it preferable to prevent the girl from being turned down (rather than the guy)? Is it the emotional issue”
That is because the average bochur has alot more girls being redt to him while the girls aren’t getting redt to as many boys.So if one girl says no to him then he just moves on to the next girl.Boy’s have lists girls don’t unless they are super rich and have the whole world running after them!
I know personally of cases where after the boy gives a yes to a girl, while the girl is checking into the boy, the boy is busy looking into other girls so he has “other girls for backup”
working: that guy is obviously a bum
For once we kind of agree 😉
Anyone who is sufficiently involved in dating the same person enough times to feel that things are going in a serious direction, has every right to expect that at that point a guy is not going out with anyone else. If either one is, it’s wrong. And I do not necessarily believe that there is anything wrong with being redd two shidduchim at the same time. I only believe that once it appears to be headed in a serious way, it would be wrong to lead another person on. It is put your money where your mouth is, time.
Wait, I don’t think that was the first time… Didn’t we once agree on the weather??
BasYisroel2: I’m not sure that’s the reason (though it makes sense)
for isn’t this practice going on for a long time,
(maybe before this 3 girls to 1 boy ratio)
Are you saying throughout history boys have been getting more offers
than girls? could be, I’m not sure.
Anyhow BasYisroel2; about your comment “I know personally ..boy gives yes 2 girl, while girl checking boy, boy busy lookin in2 other girls so he has “backup””
I dont see whats wrong with that, He is not dating the other girl,
just looking into her (usually his mother) so if current girl says no
he doesn’t have to start the whole process over, & knows which ones are nogeah
& gives an answer to the Shadchan.
what if he was redt 2 girls at the same time & the second one was his Bashert,
now after waiting a week to get a No from Girl#1,(not looking into other)
meanwhile Girl#2 gets redt to someone else, he could technically lose
his bashert! Yes the Gemara & Halacha talks alot about “Shema Ykadmenu Achar!”
Translation, For, perhaps someone will beat him to it.
bein, why do you assume its been going on for a long time?
Working, that guy is scum (or should be on the Bachelor). That is called cheating. That is not dating multiple people at once.
A twist to this discussion: is it menschlach for a shadchan to redt multiple names to the same boy/girl in the same conversation; causing the conversation to go like this:
Shadchan: I heard such good things about your son and had some shidduch ideas. Did you ever hear the names Sorah A, Rivka B or Rochel C?
Boy’s mom: never heard any of these names, tell me something about them
Shadchan: (goes on about Sora’s ma’los, parents, machatunim etc.)
Mom: ok, sounds nice. What about Rivka B
Shadchan: (insert Rivka’s “resume”)
Mom: so would you say Sorah is a louder girl? Rivka sounds more refined
Shadchan: Sorah is a more “outgoing” girl, she has a really great personality, very popular…
(Mom gets the picture- the comparison pronounces the loudness vs. the quietness of each girl)
Mom: and the third girl- Rochel?
Shadchan: (insert Rochel’s “resume”)
Mom: Rivka sounds more our type…
(Shadchan tries to persuade mom to look into the other girls as well, without success.)
If either of the 2 “rejected” girls had been redt individually, they would stand a greater chance.
Your thoughts please
areivimzehlazeh
you are a billion percent right.
It makes sense.if you have options then you can choose.if you only have one then you can only deal with that one.Which is why in my opinion that the one thing that is contributing greatley to the shidduch crisis is the lists.
My friends who have brothers in the parsha and shadchanim that my family knows described the boys list scenerios to me.
Most(not all) boys have lists of girls names.Their mothers find out which girls are the richest, prettiest and compare and which ever one is the best catch in their mind .And all the other girls fall to the waste side( yes I know that if Hashem wants some one to get married he will find a way but why do we have to be the cause of someone not getting married right away we don’t have to be the shaliach of that- “Megalgilin Zechus al yedei Zakai vechova al yedei chayav)These other girls get -excuse me for a better lack of words – “recycled”.
WE NEED TO PUT A STOP TO BOYS HAVING LISTS!
As a shadchan when you call up a boy tell his mother I have an idea for your son and ask her if she has any other names.If she says yes then tell her when you are done with those then call me up and I will be glad to give you this girl’s name.What is the point of adding another girls name to a boy that already has girls just so that she becomes another girl to compare to.This isn’t a cattle market.You are dealing with people.You are dealing with yiddishe neshamos!And belive it or not a lot of girls find out who they are being redt to.And these girls sit and pray that one boy will say yes to them.They and their parents sit by the phone and cry every night! These ridiculous lists are destroying people!The lists make some boy’s balei gavah,their mothers ask ridiculous questions because they can’t choose between the “rich girls” and “they all sound the same”, it makes girls cry that they are not good enough!Girls don’t have lists -good girls go months with out having one date!
Is this what Hashem wants?! Is this the way we build a bais neeman! Do you think that by making people cry Hashem will bring bracha?!
By making people cry do you think that the Bais Hamekdash will be built any faster? I don’t think so!
Klal Yisroel has suffered enough!
By shlomo hamelech they lost the milchamos because Klal Yisroel wasn’t beachdus- and they were a dor of Tzaddikim.And by Achav who was a rasha they won their milchamos because they were achdusdik.When there is achdus Hashem brings Bracha! Perhaps in the zechus of us helping to take away other people’s pain or try to prevent someone else’s pain, Hashem will look down on us and see our pain in galus and bring the Geulah bemhaira veameinu amen!
AZL – “If either of the 2 “rejected” girls had been redt individually, they would stand a greater chance.Your thoughts please “
(I am almost afraid to express them), but….. why not? If she knows of several nice girls, why should she not discuss several of them and get an idea what might be more shayach for him? If he does not want a loud girl, the first one would not work for him anyway. Let’s not look at the girls as “rejected” but rather more appropriate for someone else who is more appropriate for them, as well.
Joseph: I assume so, will do more research & ask my elders.
areivimzehlazeh: would they stand a greater chance I dont think so,
this is not about standing a gr8er chance it’s about what is more suitable for him.
are we trying to sneak in girls that aren’t a good match just to try & solve the shidduch crises?
BasYisroel2: please don’t take this the wrong way, but what you said is ridiculous!!!
What the shaddchan is supposed to do, is instead of rolling down a list 1st,
is to ask what type of girl is your son looking for? Not too loud not too quiet?
then on his list should omit from metioning girls A & C & redt Girl B.
Although this is more Mentchlich, it has the same outcome as mentioning a few girls,
then comparing which one is more his type. The Point isn’t to get redt to alot of ppl but to get redt to the right type for you.
I understand it hurts & I feel for these girls, but why not spare these girls, (who have ahard enough time as it is) from getting turned down from the ones that werent their type from the get go.
oomis1105: right on point!
However BasYisroel2 I still think the proper way is what i wrote u on lines 3 & 4.
Bain hasedorim
you mised my point why keep on giving boys thousands of names you just make more girls to wait around.the mother of the boys know that they have the upper hand so they will take years to look into all the girls.These people wouldn’t be so high and mighty if their sons didn’t have a thousand names.the point is to try and lessen the upper hand.You have to look at reality.Reality-easier for boys so why on earth do we make it even harder for girls and easier for boys .why are you offering three thousand girls to the mother of the boy.it should be a rule you can’t look in to more than a few at a time.It is disgusting that we have fallen so low that to get a date you have to be on some royal highnesses list.We girls should start having lists and we should start being picky then perhaps no boys would have an equal time in shidduchim as the girls!
you said “What the shaddchan is supposed to do, is instead of rolling down a list 1st,
is to ask what type of girl is your son looking for? Not too loud not too quiet?
then on his list should omit from metioning girls A & C & redt Girl B”
Yes you should omit.you said so yourself that the tachlis of dating is to get the right person in our case mention the right person.How in the world does redting a thousand girls serve that purpose?The only purpose it serves is to blow up boy’s and their mothers egos who all need to get off of their high trojan horses and face reality!A few girls doesn’t mean a thousand! why on earth do mother’s of boys harbor names?
I understanding redting a few but lists?! That should be banned! I am sorry if you disagree but as someone who is has made shidduchim I see only flaws in boys having a lists no good can come out of it.
You have to put yourself in someone else’s shoes! I am sure that you like the list after all your a boy who wouldn’t be happy if they had the whole world running after them!
Lists serve no purpose.Girls are just degradaded,humilated and dragged through the mud!
Maybe I should get a list of boys from all over and start rating them!
Bas Yisroel:
WANT TO STOP THE LISTS????
CLOSE THE AGE GAP
I knew a guy who wouldn’t go out with anyone outside of Brooklyn. I asked his mother about a girl from Monsey (not exactly OOT) and he refused because he didn’t want to drive to her.
I even offered to ask if she would come in for the first few dates (hey, its not up to me to decide that) and he said no, because eventually he would have to drive to Monsey. Sheesh! He did marry someone who lived 3 blocks away…
He should of told you right away he insists on someone within walking distance…
BasYisroel2: Where do you get “thousands” from? I doubt it’s much higher than ten or twenty.
You cannot lay all the blame on the boy side. I dated for a good few years, over 40 girls. I averaged less than 2 dates per girl and that includes all the dates I had with my wife. An overwhelming majority of the terminations were from the girl’s side.
Getting rid of the list, whether it’s on the boy side or girl side, will just make the whole process take longer. While person A (boy or girl) is seeing person B, they (or hopefully their parents/friends) can be researching other people. If there is no “list” on either side, you waste time researching between prospects. I think BOTH sides should have lists, to take advantage of this efficiency.
;
I see I touched on a raw nerve.
“There are fewer ‘good’ boys”
“It’s easier to be a good girl”
“The boys’ mothers only want rich girls”
“There are more girls than boys- age gap”…..
Davening… t’hillim… working on ones bitachon and middos! THAT is what we need to be doing. And if you don’t get engaged at 20, 21, 22 or 23… it’s not the end of the world!
BasYisroel2: ok, ok! I’ll give u a list. 🙂
I was referring to areivimz, scenario, I agree with u,
thats what i wrote, Shadchan should only mention what is directly nogeah,
btw I never got a list! Where was i when they were handing out lists?
areivim: great point! however, “if you don’t get engaged at 20, 21, 22 or 23…
it’s not the end of the world!”
IT’S NOT?! …Whew!!
bain Hasedorim
I’m sorry i wasn’t trying to come down hard on you.You seem like a nice person.However I was just stating some unpleasant facts!
It might not be such a bad idea to make lists of singles, people would benefit especially people who think they went out with everyone already!
I personally don’t like the idea of dating more than one person at a time (can you decide which song or food you like better by listening to them or eating them both at the same time?) but it’s just my opinion.
This story happened to my sister (who shares my opinion). My only involvement was that I was an unknowing accomplice.
A shadchan called and had a guy for my sister who (at that time) was the top guy in Lakewood. Guy drives in, takes her out and she decides she isn’t interested. Before she can get in touch with the shadchan- another shadchan called to set her up with the top guy in Lakewood (it must have been a tie for that zman). My sister readily agreed to go out with him. This guy though insisted that my sister travel to Lakewood for the date.
When she called the first shadchan to let her know her decision, the shadchan told her that she has to go out with him again since it’s understood that if he has a long drive he gets at least two dates.
She is now committed to going out with two guys.
She told the first shadchan that she has to go to Lakewood for a simcha or something so she’ll go out with the first guy in Lakewood.
My mother got all frantic that she might come back a little late from the first date and the second guy will be sitting in his car watching her come back from a date so she had my sister go out from two different cousins houses.
Now here’s where I come in. My mother called a cousin of ours and asked them to invite us under the guise that my wife needed a break (she was in her 9th month at the time). So while we were in Lakewood my sister “happened to also be there” and needed a ride from one cousin to another for a date. (I only found out about the whole story after the fact.)
I guess it’s better to say that your brother dropped you off for the date than to say that another date dropped you off!
You all probably figured out what happened next, right? She liked the first guy better and agreed to go out with him again. When my mother called the shadchan for the second guy, the shadchan told her that she made him commit to two dates since my sister was traveling for the date.
Now again she had to date two guys, in the same city on the same day.
After this date she liked the second guy better and ended it with the first.
She later ended it with the second guy also. 🙁
omg, dr pepper, that is completely hysterical!! (though also completely insane.. poor girl!)
Wow! Sounds complicated!
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