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It’s common for people to assume that horrifyingly evil things are the foray of the mentally ill and incapacitated. We like to think of murderers and the like as “crazy”. We also like to think that such people are unintelligent. “Stupid, crazy morons” in slight variations is the refrain one commonly hears.
We can see from the letter, written in rabbinic prose with lots of pesukim, gemara quotes and phrases from seforim, that this isn’t so. I have never heard or dreamt of a call to even commit acts of violence dressed up in rabbinic garb….the biggest kanoim in the most incendiary pashkivil hasn’t called for bodily harm to anyone. It’s so foreign to jewish nature.
I wish the letter weren’t written this way. It’s going to be hard to read real letters from rabbonim for quite some time; the association in my mind of lashon kodesh with the unspeakable evil advocated and demanded in this letter is hurting me very much… I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way. To abuse snd corrupt the meaning of mesiras nefesh into this monstrosity….
I hope and daven for the lives of the children to be saved; this is a circumstance where we can and should pursue any means to hunt down these reshoim; they’re also, ironically considered rodfim in every sense of the term.
A. What did the letter that was written in rabbinic language state?
B. How are you sure the letter is authentic?1. How can you be sure that the press or online reports about what they’re up to, believe or practice has any accuracy whatsoever?
2. How can you believe accusations from people that left their community, especially if they left in some disputed circumstances?
3. Why are you still defending a dangerous group of individuals who have been near-unanimously condemned by pretty much every Rov on the planet who ever spoke about them?
Dear Ujm,
Some people have values that go deeper and beyond their current agenda. If that was not the case, there would be no agendas.
ujm,
It is not like people are using these letters as evidence to prosecute this sect/cult. However, based on many reports, including people that have not left the group, all these claims and reports seem to be pretty consistent.
Besides, it’s not like these governments that are involved fear these groups, it’s basic humanity to try whatever is possible to save the children and those that are unfortunately caught up in this cult.
People thought that Helbrans was a fanatic cult leader. When compared to the current leader(s), he actually seems so liberal.
We (as a community and society) intervene when there seems to be abuse and neglect involving children and elderly people. We should also be concerned about the alleged and apparent abuse that involving young children.
Yseribus: Do you have answers to the questions or do you simply believe everything you read online?
Since you claim “every Rov on the planet”who spoke about it, please name the three most chushuv/prominent such Rovs, which should be very easy for you since you can pick from “every Rov, unless of course you just made that up.
N0meso: Do you have answers to those few basic questions posted above?
Yes
As in yes I have answers.
But I would not call those questions basic.
I would need some more evidence of authenticity including proof of chain of custody. A few questions: the letter is dated April 17, 2019. How did it come to light now? (mendy said he left the cult in 2018) In the recording the woman is telling us they were commanded to slaughter the children. The letter seems to suggest poisoning. When was the recording made?
An actual news article looking to inform the public would have included some of these facts.
I am not looking to defend Lev Tahor but i would like to know more before reaching any conclusions. We know that one individual at the head of the hunt of lev tahor also called the goy from lebanon/texas a hezbollah terrorist and we now know that this was not true. Can we hold up a second before we rush to judgment? This letter could very well be authentic and if it is, there are no words to describe the evil and horror but can we just make sure that it is, please?
Besalel: Brace yourself to being accused of being my sock-puppet.
“It’s going to be hard to read real letters from rabbonim for quite some time”
Grow up. Stop being a baby
Ujm, what are you trying to say? That Lev Tahor is not a terrible, ruthless, & guilty cult? I would be very surprised to hear a Frum Yid say that was they are doing is okay.
AvirahDeArah, Jews did such things during the Crusades and the pogroms in times of the Middle Ages.
Avira: York, England, in the tower. (Just to answer your question; nothing to do with the OP/thread.)
Some did. There was a machlokes about it, though. It may also mentioned in the Kinnos of Tishah be’Av.
It may be mentioned in the Da’as Zkeinim mi’Ba’alei ha’Tosfos. Two Rabbonim clashed about it.
I think each father in York killed his wife and children, and then himself.
They did kill them. You can argue whether it was proper or not, but it happened. Some did also during the holocaust but very few.
Avira, all I meant is stop being so dramatic. Do you have a problem reading an English book from Rabbi Avigdor Miller? There are many terrible people who write in English.
In York, the accounts say they did kill them. But it’s very different comparing a vadai babtisim (as in 1100s it was absoutely certain they would be forced or killed immediately), and a horoas shoh from baalei tosofos who were present in that tower, from present day when, even if their children were removed it’s NOT a vadai that havroas hadaas will happen.
And if the argument here is that it’s “mutar” in their preceived ciscumstances to murder children, then I think they should loudly proclaim that this proclamation is real and they are indeed prepared to murder children rather than allow removal from the cult. I think we all know how the yiddishe world will react.
@ujm said:
<i>How can you believe accusations from people that left their community, especially if they left in some disputed circumstances?</i>Yes, of course we <b>do</b> give heed to the words of Jews who have left this group. Ignoring those the few that went secular, most of the ex-members of LT reamined frum. The only reason we would discount a Torah yid who makes serious accusations against another, is under dinei loshon horah. Even under dinei loshon horah, the din of “michash miboi” and “kolo dlo posik” clearly applies here.
We could be very suspicious, and I think there’s enough evidence that it can all be 100% beleived.
Even without evidence from the inside (ex-members etc), anyone who does research on LT and look at the difference between a cult and a (lmoshol) chassidus, it’s very clear LT is a cult.
Slavishly following the Rebbe like he’s G-d, or having extreme “kashrus”, and very restricted learning is only one aspect, and indeed one that’s harder to distinguish from true chassidus so it’s a red herring. (That said, there’s no chassidus that has all 3 of these extremes, and many more – except LT.)
A chassidus does not ostracise those that leave it for another chareidi derech, and enforce entirely cutting off anyone that leaves even from their own family left behind.
That’s without mentioning ask the other cultish aspects, such as the way medication and punishment is built into their system with the pretence that it’s yahadus and halacha.
Lev lachim should rescue these poor neshomos.
@ujm If you look back at the now-infamous article from several years back attempting to defend LT, you will find several comments by notable Rabbonim. One of the Satmar Rebbes said that the community needs to be “rescued”. Even though this depraved article was meant as a defense, the author was forced to list several of their heinous practices, such as marriages of 13 year old children and taking kids away from parents as a punishment.
The following is not specific to Lev Tahor but these type of situations in general. LT happens to be the example because they are under discussion
Frequently when are accused and presumably guilty of very bad things all judgement other than negative judgment is thrown out the window.
Even TODAY after all the things LT has done I still oppose a mass kidnapping/saving of all the children there and having them placed in better foster homes without an unbiased individual investigation on a case by case basis.
I know LT would never cooperate with such an investigation but if you have the power to take away children then you have the power to investigate.
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