LETTER TO BIBI [in Hebrew]

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  • March 3, 2014 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #612257
    Getzel
    Participant

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    from Todays Hamevaser

    March 3, 2014 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1006983
    Sam2
    Participant

    I have several issues with this letter, from the tone to some of the phrases. However, I just want to point out that there is a gross logical fallacy being promoted here (and many other places).

    People are saying that the government is making it a crime to learn Torah. That’s just not true. They’re still supporting tens (hundreds?) of thousands in Kollelim. They are just making it a crime to not join the army.

    Imagine this analogy: a person sits and learns 24/7. He never reads his mail, never checks anything else. He just learns. One day, the IRS shows up at his door and the police arrest him for tax evasion. Did he get arrested for learning? No. He got arrested for not paying his taxes.

    A similar scenario: Someone learns his entire life. He learns 24/7 with tremendous Hasmada. He gets up to Shamayim and the Beis Din Shel Ma’alah says he’s Chayav Kareis. He says what are you talking about. How can you give me Kareis for learning? They say back that they’re not. He gets Kareis for not bringing a Korban Pesach because he was learning instead.

    I’m not fully on either side on this issue. I think the country has a right to ask the Chareidim to give back (with more than just Limud HaTorah) and I think that people who actually want to learn have a right (should they have their own means of financial support) to continue learning without pressure to stop. I also think it’s fair for the government to require some form of army service or Sheirut L’umi before someone can get a job, like any other citizen.

    However, this emotional straw man frustrates me to no end. No one is going to be put in jail for learning. They (might be) put in jail for avoiding army service, which they do by learning. But no one is making learning a crime.

    /rant

    March 7, 2014 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1006984
    Getzel
    Participant

    Because the problem here is not doing the army itself. And the goal of the law is not that they do the army. The discussion here is about the Orthodox way of life. The main goal of the law is that the Orthodox people stop being so Orthodox and start being more secular. Army, jobs, education. There is no problem with an army. Or with working. But we will not do it in a way that is detrimental to the Torah way of life.

    There are some works where nobody would send their children because they would learn there bad habits, right? Is the same here. Orthodox Jews have a different moral standard, so, for them, the army generate big problems to their way of life (and, since is not necessary for defense proposes, just for social proposes), they won’t go.

    Just imagine the opposite scenario. A Orthodox country, with a Orthodox army, in which the secular that are conscripted would rapidly became extreme Orthodox . Would the secular minority of that Orthodox country be happy to send their children to this army? Is not a defense problem, is a religious problem. The discussion here is theological, not practical.

    March 7, 2014 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1006985
    zvei dinim
    Participant

    What a ridiculousness and utterly unintelligent letter.

    You must take the other side’s legitimate concerns into account – only then can you be successful.

    March 7, 2014 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1006986
    000646
    Participant

    Getzel,

    What you are saying is simply not true. If the Chareidim would be willing to do any service- even in chareidi only groups and even non-combat units the situation would not be what it is today. When someone suggested that instead of serving in the military yeshiva bochrim do community service like street cleaning during bein hazamanim the whole chareidi establishment was up in arms.

    March 7, 2014 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1006987
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    00646

    Actually that proposal give’s credence to those who say that the overall point is to secularize chareidi youth.

    If the point was merely to have Chareidim provide service to the country then any half honest observer would admit that Chareidim far and away are successful at that.

    Chareidim have started and maintained numerous services that provide support for the entire population.

    Ezra L’Marpeh, Bikur Cholim, Hatzolah, Zaka, Va’ad HaRabbonim, Yad Sorah, Exrah l’Marpeh and many more.

    The overwhelming majority of these “chesed” orginizations were started by Chareidim and have a large number of chareidi volunteer’s that make them run.

    So why not just recognize the important contributions that C hareidim already make?

    Why the need to force them to do so under secular authority?

    March 9, 2014 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1006988
    000646
    Participant

    Ben Levi,

    The fact is that the vast vast majority of Chareidim do not serve in any of those organizations in lieu of the Army. If the Chareidim were willing to accept mandatory service for all yeshiva bochrim in an org like Zaka for example then the situation would not be what it is today. The Chareidim will not accept such a proposal they want to be left alone and not have to do anything but learn if that’s what they want, while secular people must go join the army by age 18. That’s the issue.

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