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Whats your reaction to the letter signed by Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky,Rav Aryeh Malkiel Kotler and Rav Matisyahu Salomon to allow Non Vaccinated children to attend our schools.
Will the Pro Vaccinated family’s pull their children out of school?
Will The schools follow the Rosh Yeshivas letter?
Thoughts…
When a childhood disease occurs because of this irrensponsible policy will they blame lack of Tzniut or will they blame the internet for the tragedy
I agree as long as Tay Sachs testing is stopped due to lack of bitachon shown.
Many people have tried to get R’ Shmuel to be Chozer on this when he said it last time. It’s very unfortunate that people have managed to fool him in this and now they’re fooling other Rabbonim as well.
People who refuse to vaccinate their children are rotzchim. The children should be forcefully vaccinated and definitely not let into school.
achosid: Well, that’s not fair. Once they’re forcefully vaccinated, no need to keep them out of school.
Rav Elyashiv held kids should be vaccinated. Kids whose parents didn’t vaccinate them should be kept out of school to force them to fulfill ??? ??? ?????.
Zehavasdad: You got me laughing there. 🙂
never saw such a letter! could you post an original?
The way I see it is as a choshen mishpat question. I dare anyone to show me the precedent in choshen mishpat in which the owner of a school is REQUIRED to allow dangerous children who were born to gullible, irresponsible, and generally stupid parents, to attend their private institutions even if it causes them a loss.
I’d love to watch that Din Torah.
Until then there is no binding psak on anyone. People confuse unvalidated opinion letters with “daas torah” (whatever that is). What gives it power, the stationery or photoshopped signatures?
People quote “lo sassur” but forget that the possuk starts with going to beis din.
Has anyone verified the claimed letter is real?
In any event, Yeshivos haven’t been in the tradition of kicking out children who aren’t vaccinated, so an instructive to maintain existing school policy is hardly revolutionary.
The problem is these parents claim it’s against their religion, therefor the first thing we have to do is set them straight! Acc. to our religion these parents are Rotzchim, nothing more, nothing less.
What if their smartphones are vaccinated against bugs? Will that do it?
Such a letter exists?
i’ll just take my vaccinated child out
If your child is vaccinated there should be no problem your child will not get the disease. It is no different than if you send your child to school with sun screen and his friend doesn’t have sun screen. Your child wouldn’t get sun burnt but the other one will.
Many letters supposedly signed by Rabbonium were never seen by them sometimes they add the name without permission, other times they misstate what is in the letter.
Abba_S: Vaccinations aren’t 100% effective. They’re only about 90-95% effective. So there is still up to a 10% chance a vaccinated child will get infected by a non-vaccinated child.
If your child is vaccinated there should be no problem your child will not get the disease. It is no different than if you send your child to school with sun screen and his friend doesn’t have sun screen. Your child wouldn’t get sun burnt but the other one will.
There are two issues here:
1. Some people, for various reasons, cannot be vaccinated.
2. Vaccinations are not necessarily 100% effective. Sometimes you can get a vaccine and still come down with the disease if you come in contact with an infected person.
In both of these cases, “herd immunity” protects them from coming down with the disease in question. By having a general population that is vaccinated, the chances of them coming down with the disease is much lower.
The Wolf
I would never send my children to such a school and were I a head of school I would insist that all children be vaccinated unless there is a medical contraindication.
The letter contains junk science that should be ignored.
Charlie,
The letter is based on halacha, which you are not qualified to comment on, nor are you qualified to comment on child raring.
I say this in this circumstances, but if you get a “Psak” not to vaccinate, you need to get another Psak and if nessasary get another Rav as well
ZD,
To paraphrase you above, will you blame a child’s low intelligence on the vaccine or your heredity?
It’s not a matter of a psak to not vaccinate. It is a psak that a school cannot exclude a child from school because they were not vaccinated. A very different type of Psak.
ndg: Are you like this in real life as well? Just wondering…
I say this in this circumstances, but if you get a “Psak” to eat cholov stam, you need to get another Psak and if necessary get another Rav as well.
Skripka: Why would you take out your vaccinated child from school? I guess you dont really believe that vaccines work.
I actually know they dont work because my vaccinated child got a ” vaccine preventable disease”. I wonder what he will come down with next. I guess vaccines only work in peoples mind.
Anyways , all of you adult are not vaccinated with all the lovely vaccines, so roll up your sleeve.
Just wondering ; at what age does a child suddenly stop infecting others? I think its a valid question since we all see how only children can carry diseases, so whats the cut-off date? Would my doctor know the answer?
Just because there was an instance of vaccines not working does not mean they don’t work in general.
chance – some vaccine preventable diseases can be caught twice, for example the chicken pox. It doesn’t mean the vaccine didn’t work, that is just how your immune system works and when you catch it the second time, it is usually much milder and lasts much shorter.
There are PSAKS saying you cannot throw out someone from non payment of tution, these are routinely ignored
There are PSAKS they say you cannot kick someone out because they are a little slower than other students , it is routinely ignored
Now there is a “PSAK” saying you cannot throw out non-vaccinated children and we should “enforce” this one.
And Joseph you are saying the same thing as me. Sometimes you have to ignore a PSAK and get a differnt Rav if he is not right for yo
Are you in favor of giving the HPV vaccine? You can’t get HPV if a couple (have always been in and) are in a monogamous relationship. The recommendation is that all children should get the vaccine at age 11/12. The reason is that at that age, the probably don’t have it and after that age, (in the USA) probably will be at risk and probably won’t be under a doctors supervision.
What are you going to say when there is an AIDS vaccine?
P.S. You can’t attend Beth Medrash Gevoha if you can’t prove that you were vaccinated. I’d be interested in seeing a letter from the rabbonim quoted at the beginning of this post.
In real life I’m shocked that moderators on a site called Yeshiva World have no issue with the derogatory remarks made here about R Shmuel Kaminetsky, R Mattisyahu Salomon and R Chaim Kanievesky. And if you wonder which comments do so, look at the one I was paraphrasing.
A poster says the rabbeim are allowing murderers into the school but you are bothered that zd says the klal will blame disease on the internet.
If you want to defend halacha and Torah, there are ways to do it without being oiver other halachas. And you are encouraged to do so.
ZD,
1) Have you seen/read the actual letter?
2) Please reference any of the other alleged “PSAKS” you refer to. I’d like to see your sources. You wringing PSAKS in large letters is not a source.
3) Do you know how many hundreds or thousands of instances that each of signatories to the letter assist with. Be it getting and or keeping children in school for any of the myriad reasons? So they have the absolute right to ask that there not be a chilul Hashem for the schools not to follow a psak.
And apparently, Joseph’s comment went over your head.
the HPV vaccine is not mandatory at this time.
And if it does unfortunatly the temptation for Averirahs can be strong in many people and it can affect people who didnt even do the averiah. Hashem can forgive you for Averiahs, however sometimes the effects can still linger and tshuva doesnt get rid of it
1) I take issue with the serious disrespect.
If that was the case you would have argued with most of the other posts, not that one.
2) Murderers? really?
People who refuse to vaccinate their children are rotzchim. The children should be forcefully vaccinated and definitely not let into school.
POSTED 1 DAY AGO EDIT DELETE
Murderers. And that doesn’t sound like it’s contradicting the Rabbeim?
3) Did you read the letter?
4) Not sure what aveirah you are alleging? Poking an anonymous poster? Who has used derogatory language against named people who also happen to be universally accepted gedolim?
Chance -“I actually know they dont work because my vaccinated child got a ” vaccine preventable disease”. I wonder what he will come down with next. I guess vaccines only work in peoples mind”
Actually the reason your child got a preventable disease, is because of people like you! People like you have convinced the government that vaccines are bad. So the government has made the vaccines not as strong as they used to be!
As usual, Charlie Hall gets it right. I have not seen the letter, don’t know whether it is genuine. There are other ravs who have opposing viewpoints on the halacha of vaccinations. Parents who oppose vaccination for their children are (i) ignorant, (ii) undereducated, or (iii) self-absorbed Upper West Siders (and their self-absorbed siblings in other locations) who daily demonstrate how people with nominal education and real money can be utterly stupid.
where has this alleged letter (psak) been circulated or printed? some already assert this letter is filled with “junk science” and are talking about it as if it certainly exists. im first cousins with a principal of a rather large beis yackov in brooklyn and she has never heard of such a letter or psak.
My 20 year old daughter who was vaccinated had her blood tested and long and behold, all the vaccine benefits were gone (except ofcourse the chickenpox which we didn’t give her). So what does that tell me? All of us adults are more or less NOT VACCINATED !!! So now what happened to herd immunity? I am neither pro or anti and am somewhat confused. But for some of you to call the anti people rotzchim etc…only shows how ignorant you are of the facts. For the record, Reb Chaim Kaneivsky has sad that vaccines are ??????. For the record, Dr. Eilenberg of Lakewood has vaccinated and non vaccinated in his practice and he says he sees first hand how non vaccinated are healthier. It is not as black and white and some of you have been brainwashed to think. Or better yet, you prefer not to think.
“The letter is based on halacha, which you are not qualified to comment on”
The halachah was decided a thousand years ago by Ravi Sherira Gaon. Anyone is qualified to say that because it is a fact.
Of course non vaccinated are healthier. It’s basic evolution. The non healthy non vaccinated aren’t protected by vaccines, so they die of measles and only the naturally healthy are left.
(not serious)
My 20 year old daughter who was vaccinated had her blood tested and long and behold, all the vaccine benefits were gone (except ofcourse the chickenpox which we didn’t give her).
Not uncommon, as they change recommendations (such as MMR) and immunity can wear out. Your daughter did the smart thing by checking, now she should re-vaccinate.
edited
Rav Sherira Gaon ruled children must be vaccinated? That non vaccinated children may be barred from school? How did this go from an unsubstatiated psak in an unsubstantiated letter to one of the Gaonim issuing a psak on vaccinations? Is it Elul or Adar?
I do not understand why anyone is a murderer in this case. Even if an unvaccinated classmate is in your child’s class it doesn’t mean that he is the cause for the disease. By this logic your child should never leave the house because he may catch a disease from someone in the street.
As far as the vaccines only working 90% of the times you have to have faith, when you drive your car do you stop at every intersection or do you rely on the fact that most people obey traffic law and don’t run red lights and stop signs?
Everybody should be entitled to a yeshiva education no matter what their vaccination status is.
stam a deya – “My 20 year old daughter who was vaccinated had her blood tested and long and behold, all the vaccine benefits were gone (except ofcourse the chickenpox which we didn’t give her). So what does that tell me? All of us adults are more or less NOT VACCINATED!”
So please read my post to Chance.
“So now what happened to herd immunity?”
From Wikipedia:
“Herd immunity (also called herd effect, community immunity, population immunity, or social immunity) is a form of indirect protection from infectious disease that occurs when a large
percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, thereby providing a measure
of protection for individuals who are not immune.”
“I am neither pro or anti and am somewhat confused. But for some of you to call the anti people rotzchim etc…only shows how ignorant you are of the facts.”
Please don’t call us ignorant! We have a lot of knowledge. I constantly seek the Emmess (truth). The real Emmess comes from Hashem. Seek and you should find it.
Everybody should be entitled to a yeshiva education no matter what their vaccination status is.
Do you take the same stand based on ability to pay, hashkafa at home or learning issues
Zahavasdad
“Do you take the same stand based on ability to pay, hashkafa at home or learning issues.”
As far as the ability to pay I don’t believe a child should be denied a Jewish education because the parent can’t pay. The parents can be threaten but the child must be provided a Jewish education. And as far as haskafa, behavior or learning issues, it is the yeshiva’s administrator responsibility to find the student an appropriate yeshiva not just kick the child out. Because if he kicks the child out without finding him/her a yeshiva it’s the same as sending them to public school, which is the equivalent of putting him in a pit of poisonous snakes and stealing the child’s soul.
nisht: I’m just curious, but is there ever an instance where you would allow an insult to a Gadol (also, I haven’t been Medayek in all the posts but it seemed to many that many were using strong language against a Psak, not an individual)? Let’s say a bona fide Gadol would say something indisputably evil. Would it be okay to strongly disagree with that Psak? Or once someone becomes a “Gadol” it is impossible to ever disagree with them ever?
I had my blood tested, and guess what? I’m somehow immune to measles, mumps, rubella and I forgot what else they tested for. I b”H never had any of these illnesses. If vaccines are worthless, I guess I just magically became immune.
Sam2- a lot of people in the yeshivish community would probably say that once someone becomes a “Gadol,” it’s impossible to ever disagree with them. In fact, many would cry “?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????” – “????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????”.
From the way I phrased that, obviously my opinion differs, but that’s what many in the community would say.
Stam
“I am neither pro or anti and am somewhat confused.”
If that is in fact true, Id be more than happy to explain it to you.
(though on this thread, http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-causing-autism-jokes you were pretty anti-vaccine (read pro-disease))
What are you confused about?
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