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WIY:
I will disagree that the pizza shops are a “fire”. That is simply not true. Don’t think for a moment that I sanction these casual cross-gender relationships. There will always be a place for the yetzer horah, and without pizza shops, it will find its way into our community. Branding everything that is not perfect as extreme evil is unfair to ourselves. It eliminates the requisite prioritization that is needed for us to live normal, Torah lives. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L often stated that we need to always be “normal”. The overbanning mentality we have adopted is destructive, not because these things are good. They are not. Not the internet, not the hanging out, etc. But to give these things the status of the truly worst is untrue. I vote against internet access without filters. I’m not tolerant of pritzus. But we have slipped into a lifestyle of bans, whether decreed by Kol Korehs, letters, ads in the media, etc., without the desperately needed fires of kedusha to sustain us.
The approach of battling the yetzer horah begins with “yaasok baTorah, and is followed by “yikro Kriyas Shema”, and as a last resort “yazkir lo yom hamisah”. As noted earlier, the asei tov is bypassed, and we are preoccupied with making things assur. This may sound appropriate, but it misses the point. It does not work.
If you think people would give money to it you are dreaming. It doesn’t make you choshuv if you just give money for a motzei Shabbos program ( that might save more lives than many other programs we have) For a number of years there was an awesome program for girls at a bowling alley in the mountains- why did it shut down? Money! It’s very easy to assur – it is very hard to be constructive! I am waiting for the full page banning adds appearing in our papers shortly. This will just be wasted money that could be used for a meaningful program for our kids!
I have a novel idea- how about banning our organizations from running 2 full page adds in the papers telling us all they do for us and use the excess tzedakah funds for our youth!
@WIY “The kids hang out motzei Shabbos because the hangouts are there if there are no hangouts they won’t hang out.”
This is the epitome of naivete. There have always been and will always be hangouts despite whatever you or anyone else says or does to the contrary. v’ain kol chadash tachas hashamesh. This does not mean that nothing should be done about the situation. Extra seder motzei shabbos may work in some yeshivos/batei medrashos but many kids need to the time away from school to chill out and recharge their batteries. By shoving this down their throats you may be causing more harm than good. I would agree with the concept of creating something for the kids to do whether it is basketball or some other sort of recreational activity. Many communities have successfully implemented similar ideas and it is time to expand those programs. The goal is to have voluntary compliance as opposed to thinking that making rules will solve all of the problems.
If a Ban is implemented, will an enforcement patrol need to be formed?
I expect some members of the YWN Coffee Room will join. This will mean this blog will be much less “lively” going forward on Motzei Shabbos.
I think the ban is important and will take a lot of pressure of many of the people that feel forced to go to these things.
My best understanding is that there are too many Pizza shops for a single Menahel to cover his own students. They will not want to take guys who might otherwise be learning. Hence, they will recruit YWN Coffee Room bloggers.
what’s really the problem here is that all through high school its always the bad girls that are “at risk” that get the attention, while the good girls “probably don’t have problems” so they are left out of the loop. If we stopped learning only about not to hang out with boys 24/7 and maybe sneak in an hour of dating tips and what to look for in a spouse, there would be less awkward dating and girls/boys would feel like they have an outlet to discus things like dating and not feel like they have to do it upclose and personal in pizza stores on motzei shabbos!
I will disagree that the pizza shops are a “fire”. That is simply not true. Don’t think for a moment that I sanction these casual cross-gender relationships. There will always be a place for the yetzer horah, and without pizza shops, it will find its way into our community. Branding everything that is not perfect as extreme evil is unfair to ourselves. It eliminates the requisite prioritization that is needed for us to live normal, Torah lives. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L often stated that we need to always be “normal”. The overbanning mentality we have adopted is destructive, not because these things are good. They are not. Not the internet, not the hanging out, etc. But to give these things the status of the truly worst is untrue. I vote against internet access without filters. I’m not tolerant of pritzus. But we have slipped into a lifestyle of bans, whether decreed by Kol Korehs, letters, ads in the media, etc., without the desperately needed fires of kedusha to sustain us.
This is worth repeating.
The enforcers are the Menahalim of the various Yeshivos. I heard they will be there to see if their boys show.
If the menahelim of the various yeshivos will be at these pizza stores, then they can watch for improper mingling. Therefore, there is no reason why a bocher can’t get a slice after a few hours Motzei Shabbod (or Shabbos afternoon) learning in the BM.
My best understanding is that there are too many Pizza shops for a single Menahel to cover his own students.
and,
If the menahelim of the various yeshivos will be at these pizza stores, then they can watch for improper mingling. Therefore, there is no reason why a bocher can’t get a slice after a few hours Motzei Shabbod (or Shabbos afternoon) learning in the BM.
I think these two posts answer each other.
The point is not hashgochah temidis. The point is mirsus.
Here’s a novel concept
– maybe the parents of teens in Brooklyn in mesivtos etc. should inculcate the menschlichkeit and common sense, as well as the ehrliche values that they wish to see, in a positive way, in the home, with good examples for their children. And if their children are ignoring these values, the parents should ask themselves why.
– maybe the mesivtos and schools, their menahelim and teachers, should consider how they are conveying what kind of behaviour they want to see among their students, if they are teaching these values in an engaging, positive way, and if they are turning young people on to Torah in innovative ways or turning them off of Torah with stifling and scaremongering. And if their students are ignoring what they teach, maybe they should reevaluate what and how thhey are teaching rather than throwing out impressionable young people.
– maybe, if they have done these cheshbonos, parents and menahelim and teachers could have some confidence that their kids, their students have been given the appropriate guidance to be able to walk in to a pizza store, get some pizza, and not feel a need or desire to socialize inappropriately.
Of course, if they don’t want to take account of themselves, if they don’t want to implement change if necessary, they can always ban their kids and students from the streets in their neighborhood. Now THAT’s a long term solution.
The point is not hashgochah temidis. The point is mirsus.
Like!! However, then the point is mingling, not stopping off for a pickup or going with a few other bochrim. (from the guy’s side, as I am a guy).
That being said, I don’t think that the issue is specifically relationships. There is also the smoking (tobacco or other items), boozing and plain not-menchlechkeit (stuff between men) that goes on at a motzei shabbos hangout. The menahelim would (IMHO) be doing the community a favor by policing the area for untoward activity. And yes, it is their job, as teachers of children, their job does not stop at the yeshiva gates.
WIY: I’m not saying that I disagree, I just don’t think that boy/girl mingling is the only issue that they are trying to prevent.
That being said, I assume you get get pizza in Brooklyn from a store that is not on Ave. J or M? Maybe Ave.s L or N have pizza too? I’ll grant you it probably won’t be as good as Di Fara (which is on Ave. J), but it may still be eatable.
GAW -“That being said, I assume you get get pizza in Brooklyn from a store that is not on Ave. J or M?”
S/o once told me to get pizza on Motzay Shabbos from Pizza Time on Ave. J because it was great pizza. Biggest mistake I made -I had to stand in line for 30 minutes and all the time I had to watch all the mingling going on, just to take it out. But I’ve gone many times to JII on M and 15th and there was hardly a line and I’ve even eaten in a few times and never saw any real Pritzus – not more than any other pizza shop anywhere else during the week.
Did anyone confirm that this was a real letter? From what I’ve heard, it wasn’t on a school stationary, it was just a typed letter sent to people. Did anyone sign their name to it?
Hashgochah temidis is needed here.
Nicnas v’yotezeh (coming and going supervision) is very insufficient.
If the kids had better alternatives (ie. like parents going on family outings motzei shabbos) they wouldn’t be chilling in the pizza shops. Banning without alternatives won’t result in any positive reform. It will just birth rebellion in these kids who were simply acting out of boredom.
Do you think we should allow teenagers to take drugs so they can feel comfortable when taking medication C’V?
If you want your kids to behave like you, then you should behave like your parents. If this still doesn’t sound appropriate, ask your parents to behave like your grandparents. Most likely that’s where it started.
The generations are only getting weaker and weaker. The only way we can keep alive is by us trying to go higher so the next level below would also be on a higher level.
WIY why make it the school’s responsibility? Besides many bais yaakovs make plays for precisely that reason. They have practices scheduled for most of the long motzei shabbosim in order that the kids have a fun option so they’ll stay away from the hang outs.
A schools responsibility is chinuch, that’s it. It’s to teach what the Torah says in a way that sounds appealing. Also being that the students are in school for large portions of the day the school should be looking out for the emotional well being of the students. But that’s during school hours. They’re not a babysitting service like many parents seem to think.
That being said if parents don’t want their kids to do xyz they should be proactive in preventing it. Merely forbidding something won’t result in any change. The parents gave birth to their children so its their responsibility. If a parent doesn’t want to entertain their kids they can find something for their kids to do, like a chug or something like that. When I was younger my parents would take us on drives
Or at least have something interesting for us to do on motzei shabbos so we weren’t roaming the streets.
I just dont understand how threatening people will stop the issue. I usually have a great respect for Rabanim
But I dont understand. They didnt stop anyone from talking to the opposite gender since every kid will just find a different way to do it and getting a letter isnt going to be a miraculous “oh yes i totally didnt realize i was doing something so different but thank you rabbis now i realize.”
All they accomplished is have these kids continue and on top of that hate rabbanim
“I just dont understand how threatening people will stop the issue. I usually have a great respect for Rabanim But I dont understand. They didnt stop anyone from talking to the opposite gender since every kid will just find a different way to do it and getting a letter isnt going to be a miraculous “oh yes i totally didnt realize i was doing something so different but thank you rabbis now i realize. All they accomplished is have these kids continue and on top of that hate rabbanim”
Do you also think we should have kept quiet about the whole alternate lifestyle marriage issue? Or did you agree then that we should stand in the way of culture changing behavior as much as possible? In either case you don’t have a chance of stopping the reprehensible behavior. But it is worth delegitimizing it for the sake of preserving social norms.
banning something ineffectually is the same as delegitimizing? Also as I am sure you are aware this opposite gender thing has been happening since the beginning of time so I think if anything it is the rabbonim/menahalim that are trying to change the culture that accepts this – which is precisely the opposite of the example you brought of alternative marriage (in many ways ironically). According to your logic it is always right to make a stand on everything.
Baldy, the culture does not accept it. That is not because it isn’t normal (it certainly is, which is in contrast to the other example) but because we disapprove of it as jews. Silence is acceptance.
oh no, not perfectly acceptable social fraternization. I think we need a ban on pizza stores
@squek
Im not saying there isnt anything wrong with the motzieh shabbos theme. Dont worry i would be the first one to vote agaisnt girls and guys hanging out!
The thing is that by usin threats and force they arent going to stop the situation. There is obviously something much deeper which is wrong. I dont know, im no rocket scientist but usually you look for the root of a problem to get rid of it. The root isnt that these kids dont realize their menhahel disapproves! The root is much much much deeper, probably touching things like messed up chinuch, hashkafos skewed in their mind, lack of loving teaching ingraining these values in them, etc.
By using negative reinforcment they accomplished 3 things:
1) made kids who already dont love Judaism and Rabbis HATE rabbanim
2) made kids put their parents on the black list if they arent already on it since now its not just their Rebbbe giving them mussar but their parents telling them where to go
3) moved the hangouts to somewhere else
I dont see anything fixed by this, do you?
@WIY I was not suggesting that we should follow american culture or that nothing should be done about the subject. I do feel that the tactics being used will be ineffective and counterproductive.
I was refering to our culture. Not sure how you missed that.
Jbaldy and squeak
We have a Torah we don’t look at their culture. Besides society is at a very sick low. Google teenage pregnancy if you want go know what goes on.”
Everything you say is completely true (didn’t want to quote the whole thing). But to play devil’s advocate for just one moment, I recall a story of a child who was misbehaving badly, so the father potched the kid closest to him. When the child (rightly) protested, the father commented, “Now BOTH of you get the message.”
Perhaps it doesn’t seem fair for our kids to get “potched” when they are not becoming unwed parents. But the influences unfortunately are still around us in many ways. while I personally do not believe that it really helps the situation to forbid normal kids from going to the local pizza places (why cannot the rabbonim be a visible presence at popular hangouts, on a rotating basis?), nonetheless, I recognize the potential for problems with certain kids, while at the same time not wanting to alienate the ones who ARE behaving themselves.
The root isnt that these kids dont realize their menhahel disapproves! The root is much much much deeper, probably touching things like messed up chinuch, hashkafos skewed in their mind, lack of loving teaching ingraining these values in them, etc.
You’re forgetting that there’s a yetzer hora involved. Many of these kids are not missing a loving home or proper values, they just need some discipline to keep them from doing something wrong.
while I personally do not believe that it really helps the situation to forbid normal kids from going to the local pizza places
Oomis, you’re coming from a totally different frame of reference. You think the socializing is okay. The menahalim involved think it’s assur.
The problem is greatly exacebrated by the fact that far too many of the girls dress untzniusdik. That problem needs to be addressed as well.
Shev16…and they start flirting..dont not kid yourselfs(which i dont as i go according to all holy sforim regarding this subject) this is the tachlis of all these gatherings jews non jews…thats the animalistic nature all beings..
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