Letter circulated in Brooklyn about Motzei Shabbos hangouts

Wife Mommy: I have no idea. I’d logically think so, if they’re seen as inevitable. However, the people who don’t think these things are inevitable will logically not see it that way.

I feel like a lot of this is a matter of “out of sight, out of mind.” Teens are hanging out in pizza stores- let’s ban that! Now the pizza stores aren’t hangouts- problem solved. Who cares if now they’re at Dunkin Donuts or 7Eleven- we haven’t seen them there yet.

NO TEEN is perfectly innocent. Were you guys, when you were kids? It could just be a teeny niggling rebellious streak, even if you didn’t act on it, but different kids just express it in different ways. And no, it doesn’t necessarily cause OTDness.

rationalfrummie -“Health: a few dates cannot instantly change 20 years of life experience! If in those years one does not talk at all to girls one’s age, it can cause years of discomfort, anxiety, and social awkwardness.”

Funny you keep repeating the same thing to defend your behavior.

The truth is after a few dates most Yeshiva guys get the hang of it. Noone goes onto having years of problems like you said.

There are no reasons to talk to girls socially unless you are on a date. If s/o engages in such behavior – he is doing something Prust.

There was a study that came out 4 years ago from London university that baed on a sample of 17,000 people, men that went to same-gender schools are more likely to be divorced or never married by their 40s. Depression was also fairly hiigher than for co–Ed schools,

I’m not an advocate for mixed schools at all, but kal vachomer the situation would be even worse for guys if they NEVER talk to girls even outside of school in normalized settings. If you make conversing taboo, it will lead to either bored experimentation that’s definitely not halachic or awkwardness.

I don’t understand how you think the complexities of the male-female dynamic relationship can be worked out in a few dates, overcoming a lifetime of stigma and no prior experience.

Imagine if you threw me onto a baseball field and put me at shortstop, without me knowing the rules of the game, how to play, good strategy, or tips to get better. It sould be a disaster. This is what happens to guys who have never talked to girls. They’ve never played the game, don’t know the rules, and aren’t sure how to start.

RF -“I don’t understand how you think the complexities of the male-female dynamic relationship can be worked out in a few dates, overcoming a lifetime of stigma and no prior experience. Imagine if you threw me onto a baseball field and put me at shortstop, without me knowing the rules of the game, how to play, good strategy, or tips to get better. It sould be a disaster. This is what happens to guys who have never talked to girls. They’ve never played the game, don’t know the rules, and aren’t sure how to start.”

This is a nice scenario based on your logic, but not based on reality. The fact is all of us Yeshiva guys did do it and continue to do it. I don’t have to prove to you it’s logical, maybe it isn’t, but this is still the fact, despite your denial.

Maybe Hashem gives Siyata D’shemaya to those who keep his Torah.

You sound like s/o who feels Guilty about their religious behavior and is looking for every excuse in the book why you don’t have to keep Halacha!

i grew up in a very small out of town community where there were no kosher pizza shops or any hang outs on motzei shabbos and where saying good shabbos or hello to a boy wasnt the end of the world. my school was co ed till 8th grade. most of the boys in my class came from yeshivish homes. i had rabbonims sons and the rosh yeshivas grandson in my class becuase there was no choice and no money to fund a second school. we were all friendly with each other and everyone stayed yeshivish and married good frum people. my best friends were these twin boys who lived down the block from me.

personally i think if the kids are going to hang out anyway let the pizza shops stay open. its a public place where anyone and everyone can see them. closing them would cause way worse havoc. where else will the kids go? the library? doubtful. they will find some other place. perhaps less public or less frum jews. either way, less eyes on them. kicking a kick out of yeshiva or bais yaakov is the worst thing someone can do. theres no coming back from that. whether emotionally or even in terms of shidduchim. the kids will even hang out more if they dont have to be in school. let the parents dicipline these kids. schools should stay out of it. anyways thats my opinion.

2smart4u: Welcome to the CR! I agree with most of what you said (at least if I understood it correctly). I’ve had this discussion with others before, and unfortunately, you will never win this argument. Our observations don’t matter – all you’ll hear back is, “But Da’as Torah said differently from you! Do you think you know better than da’as Torah?”

In this case, yes, I think I do know better. I’ve gone through all the temptations, slipped up for a while, and found my way back. I understand it much better than most Rabbonim. They never went through this, so they don’t know what goes through our heads.

2smart: those are some good points. Im with you 100% that oftentimes the most yeshivish kids are the ones that go really OTD.

However, I disagree with your last sentence. you can definitely stop kids from doing things. Shabbos, kashrus, shomer negiah, they’re all halachos and mitzvos that stop people from doing things (such as touching, eating pork, or working on Shabbos)! Why is this different?

Oomis: Thank you for calling health out- I think (s)he really went way too far there in making incorrect assumptions and spreading sheker.

Health: Halacha is Halacha, you’re right. But in this case it seems like those that are noheg like rav health, and the mekoros you never quoted often times end up doing very poorly in life, per the study. And by the way, stick to ideas, and avoid personal attacks. Those are generally used by people that don’t have any good ideas.

A mamin: you know there is a shidduch crisis going on, right??

WanderingTeen -“These things drive me other the freaking edge!!!!! What on earth is wrong with teenagers having some innocent fun????”

If going to a pizza shop and shmuzing with the same gender is an outlet you need -then fine, but what most do is Shmuz with opposite genders and this is against Halacha, whether you know this or not. This ain’t No Chumra.

RF -“Halacha is Halacha, you’re right. But in this case it seems like those that are noheg like rav health, and the mekoros you never quoted often times end up doing very poorly in life, per the study.”

This is why I question whether you talk to the opposite gender or Not because of your double talk. First you say “Halacha is Halacha” and then you say “those that are noheg like rav health”. I’m Not the one Assuring Stam talking to opposite genders -the Torah is. Are you ignorant in this Din? The Gemorra says “Afeilu Sicha Kalla Bein Ish Lishto Asid Leetain Es Hadin” -for sure s/o who is Not your wife! This Din is also brought down in S’A and Poskim.

hi guys. isnt this debate already old? all rabbonim say one thing, (except MO) and everyone else knows better. old news. i think its funny that health has to fight a battle where the lines are clearly drawn by halacha and RF gets to say “ya, but…” Isnt that ridiculous? yup.teens will forever be doing things wrong. its how Hashem made the world. for those of you who are naive enough to believe that keeping them open in hangout mode will keep them from pursuing worse things outside pizza shop, thats silly. theyll do whatever it is anyway. but fighting rabbonim and halacha pesuka is even dumber.

A teen who goes every Motzei Shabbos told me that everyone is at the bonfires tonight. No one needs pizza shops. 🙂

WIY, we both like pizza, but you like your pizza with a strong cup of Ka’naus.

Some policies have an effect to winnow out those who are not totally devoted.

Is our goal to present to Moshiach a bare Minyan of the totally dedicated and leave everyone else behind?

The concept of the Few, the Select exists and can be energizing for some, but it is not a Jewish concept.

WanderingTeen,

Unfortunately, the mekoros regarding intergender interactions are not taught in high school. This leaves teenagers with the impression that as long as they aren’t doing “anything serious” there is nothing wrong and the rabbis are just being farfrumpt and piling on chumras. This is not chumra, this is ikkar hadin basic halacha (that doesn’t mean it is easy, of course).

Rational,

I am no seeker of chumras and I rarely agree with Health on anything. But in this case he is absolutely right. The mekor is in Sanhedrin 75a.

The gemara reports an incident of a man who became lovesick regarding a certain woman. The doctors said that the man would die if he could not fulfill his love in some manner. The sages were consulted and said that it is better the man die. The doctors suggested only having her stand before him unclothed. The sages said it is better the man die. The doctors suggested having them converse on opposite sides of a fence (i.e. where they could not even see each other) but still the sages maintained it was forbidden.

Reb Moshe (I”M, Even HaEzer Chelek 4:60)understood this gemara to mean that conversation “derech tayva” is forbidden m’d’oraisa. Most poskim hold that it is d’rabbanan as is implied by the Rambam in Issurei Beiah 21:2 and in the Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:1.

There was a study that came out 4 years ago from London university that baed on a sample of 17,000 people, men that went to same-gender schools are more likely to be divorced or never married by their 40s. Depression was also fairly hiigher than for co–Ed schools

Irrelevant. The relevant question would be if frum people who socialize with the opposite gender as teens have a higher divorce rate than those who don’t. I never did a study, but it’s highly doubtful. It’s also quite assur.

Toi – TY

I am questioning the specific sanction of expulsion for being at a pizza store Saturday night.

That’s worth discussing.

Those who want to be supported in Kollel should have to take an oath that they did not have even a single improper conversation with a woman in the last 4 years.

That’s silly.

These are not very high standards of frumkeit. This is basic. It’s also being done in public, and it would be irresponsible to not speak out against it.

Of course, the single important aspect of chinuch is example. That doesn’t exempt one from taking other courses of action as well.

It should be pointed out that “will face serious consequences” is not the same as “will definitely be expelled”.

I agree that expulsion for one instance is extreme. High Schools should be teaching their students these halachos, and punishments should be stiff but not so final, that a boy or girl cannot do teshuva.

And, in fact, the letter, as reported above, and as I noted, did not indicate automatic expulsion for one offense.

@DY “Kids don’t go OTD from frumkeit.” This is a hopelessly naive statement. Deal with otd kids in lakewood and you will be singing a very different tune. Kids do go otd due to absolutism. There was an article in mishpacha magazine a while back which quoted a psychologist who said that lakewood has the highest percentage of kids who go otd. While I don’t think that mishpacha is a particularly reliable source for this type of information, lakewood definitely has a huge problem.

I also agree with josh31 about the disturbing trend of yeshiva high schools and even elementary schools who think that it is ok to just throw kids out of yeshivas with absolutely no achrayus for what becomes of them. Ditto with the kids not getting accepted to schools. This is not something which comes from a torah ideology.

I do agree that something should be done about the hanging out situation but issuing a mass letter is silly and will be subject to much ridicule. Each yeshiva should be responsible for enforcing its own policy. Additionally, expecting that teens wont find some way to circumvent you is also hopelessly naive – so instead of hanging out in pizza shops they will hang out in 7/11 and dunkin donuts. The goal is to ensure that the ones who want to do the right thing have the proper environment through which to do so, not to prevent the ones who dont as that will always be a losing battle. I also do believe that there is a major chesaron in chinuch in this regard and that both parents and yeshivas could do a lot more than they are presently doing. Vhamaivin Yavin.

I think the following should be obvious:

Different kids (and adults) go off the derech for different reasons. Some kids go off the derech because they are too sheltered and feel stifled by frumkeit. Some kids go off the derech because they are allowed too much involvement in the non-Jewish world. There are many, many reasons that children go off the derech and beyond free will there is no one reason that is relevant in every case.

Any uniform policy is going to have negative unintended consequences. School’s are constricted, for the most part, to uniform policies, but parents are not. Therefore, parents can and must alter their policies to fit the personality and circumstances of each individual child.

@DY and where did I equate frumkeit with absolutism. I call straw man again. I was arguing with what was implied (intentionally or otherwise) when you said that the “only” cause of otd is emotional trauma and not “frumkeit”. My response was that perceived absolutism on the part of parents and rebbeim either through mistaken beliefs by the parents/rebbeim themselves or through incredibly awful chinuch plays a major role in a lot of kids going otd. And yes enforcing crazy chumras (I am NOT referring to separating genders here) and equating them with halacha is part of it. Some people seem to believe that an overload of negative reinforcement is a necessary component in educating jewish kids. I believe this to be incredibly counterproductive and counter to simple saichel.

@jb22, I wrote “Kids don’t go OTD from frumkeit.”, which you disputed with “kids do go otd because of absolutism”. That was the strawman which I was calling you out on, because you twisted my argument into one defending absolutism.

I would agree that sending out letters isn’t a complete solution, but certainly, in many cases, the parents are naive and need to know what goes on when their kids go out on Motzaei Shabbos. A mass gathering wouldn’t reach everyone, and it’s a logistical impossibility to personally speak to every parent.

It’s also a necessary statement if the community’s values. You see how some people actually defend it.

it’s very easy to just ban something . an adventurous teenager is “hanging around” so to speak because they have nothing better to do. If the yeshivas were really interested then maybe some rabbeim should arrange something for the guys to do 2/4 motzash a month.

I think that if people are so worried about boys and girls hanging out on Saturday nights at the pizza shops, then the rebbeim should give the bochurim something to do and the girls something to do instead of trying to ban everything, giving Jewish teenagers no reasons to remain religous. You don’t want that to happen. Also, if they are in public if they are talking, people can see what they are doing instead of closing down the pizza shops and then they start to hang out with a crowd that is ACTUALLY suspicious

TLIK -“I am convinced that some of the voices here that are taking seemingly opposite approaches are all missing the point.”

I didn’t read every last word of your post, but I agree with the gist of it. Maybe print out your post and mail it to the Moetzes with your real name. They won’t all of a sudden change, but maybe it might make a Roishem and maybe there will be change in the future.