Letter circulated in Brooklyn about Motzei Shabbos hangouts

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Dear Parents,

We are writing to you in the matter of utmost importance. The dangers that face our children today are well known.

It has come to our attention that Motzei Shabbos has become a time of sakanah and Yeridah for teenage boys and girls in our neighborhood. Avenue J and Avenue M and other avenues have become places where a Ben torah and Bas Yisroel should not be found.

We find it nessasary to notify all parents of the mesivta of Flatbush. Our Talmidim are not allowed on these streets on Mozei Shabbos. Any talmid found on these streets will face serious consequences.

Let us work together to see nachas from our children. and Bearaz hashem will be be priviledge dot see Moshaich in our time.

(I dont know how to get Hebrew Letters so I changed that part)

That’s like how a pizza shop in Monsey stopped opening on Motzei Shabbos after they were told that they’d lose their hechsher since it was a hangout.

That seems unfair. Motzai Shabbos is prime business time for pizza stores in Brooklyn, and they cater to everyone, not just teens.

I dont know who sent the letter, Was it some Self-Proclaimned Vaad-Hatziuth or was it from the schools directly

The scans I saw weren’t on letterhead and didn’t have any signatures.

I truthfully think that if they are just talking, there is nothing wrong with it. A normal teenage has an attraction for the opposite gender. If you tell them that girls or boys are evil, then they will just rebel and do things which are much worse than talking and hanging out. You can talk to girls, and still be religious. In fact, for some people I know, them talking to the opposite gender makes them do even more religious stuff. If they are being shomer, and not talking about shtus, even though that often it is a waist of time, then it is better than them going off the derech. Hanging out with the opposite gender is not against the Torah at all

But if they are yeshiva bochurim, then they should what line to cross. If not, then I question these roshei yeshiva and rebbeim

Here we go again. Looking for a way to ban things. It may sound logical, but it just won’t work. The focus, if we truly want to improve things, is to do things with kids to provide them with healthy socialization and fun. There were once Pirchei groups that made kosher entertainment available. We have placed so many restrictions (in the name of chumrah) on our homes and children that every form of kosher entertainment is banned. Result – kids go outside and seek their excitement and stimulation elsewhere. And now we are hopping mad.

Sending rebbeim to Ave. J to monitor things is useless. Throwing kids out of yeshiva and school comes next, and this will be the “Torah” sanctioned murder of these neshamos. I shudder to think about the disasters that will result from these incompetent efforts to resolve the problem.

rabbiofberlin,

There are pizza shops in Monsey that don’t have seating Motzei Shabbos (they remove all the chairs), for the reason cited above.

I guess is technically possible to “hang out” with the opposite gender without pleasurable conversation or flirting, but that is extremely unlikely to be what is occurring.

I agree, but it is possible to “hang out” next to a group of the opposite gender without any conversation.

Personally, I like the idea of having separate Pizza shops, especially on Motzei Shabbos. All Bochrim can go to shop A, all Bais Yaakov girls to shop B. All dates to Shop C (formal attire required). Seniors to shop D (AARP card check), and families (certified with Kesubah & birth certificates) to shop E.

Are there five pizza shops on Ave. J?

There are better ways to deal with this issue. Forcing the boys and girls to leave and threatening in this way is forcing them to find somewhere else to hang out. There are bigger and better places for them to hang out and this is a much more kosher venue! I write from experience! Parents can deal with their own children individually, one way is by providing them with something productive and fun to do on Motzei Shabbos.

rationalfrummie -“Platonic, shomer conversations and friendships can exist between genders. Many non-Jews are “just friends” with people of different genders and nothing scandalous happens.”

There is no such thing as “Platonic, shomer conversations and friendships can exist between genders” amongst Jews. It does exist in some cases by certain Goyim. This is a Chumradika (Bad)Aveira by Jews!

“If boys and girls aren’t allowed to talk or “hang out”, they won’t have the skills that are necessary for shidduchim, college, and the workplace (if applicable).”

The first case that you mention it’s Ossur. The other cases are Mutter if it’s related directly to school or work.

Many guys I know that went to all-boys elementary, middle, and high schools, as well as camps now feel in their 20s very awkward around girls, since the only women they ever talked to were their mom, sisters, teachers, or occasional mixed event.

And btw pleasure is almost always derived from conversations, unless its an argument or just hurling insults…

Interacting at Shabbos meals is awkward and you never know what to say. Mot parents also intentionally separate kids of the same age, if they’re teens.

My main point is that separation is good for maintaining tznius, preventing pre-marital bia, and keeping things clean. At the same time it can also make regular conversations and scenarios awkward, as well as preventing one from having good dates.

I dint think these concerns are overblown because I’ve seen what happens to guys who just left the freezer, and literally never talked to girls their age before. It can feel intimidating and downright scary.

Measures such as this only add to to the tension.

rationalfrummie -“Many guys I know that went to all-boys elementary, middle, and high schools, as well as camps now feel in their 20s very awkward around girls, since the only women they ever talked to were their mom, sisters, teachers, or occasional mixed event.”

Yes, I was like that and that’s the way it should be.

“And btw pleasure is almost always derived from conversations, unless its an argument or just hurling insults”

And that’s why it’s almost always Ossur.

“My main point is that separation is good for maintaining tznius, preventing pre-marital bia, and keeping things clean. At the same time it can also make regular conversations and scenarios awkward, as well as preventing one from having good dates.”

The awkwardness goes away after a few dates.

“I dint think these concerns are overblown because I’ve seen what happens to guys who just left the freezer, and literally never talked to girls their age before. It can feel intimidating and downright scary.”

Maybe for some, Not for most!

“Measures such as this only add to to the tension.”

So what? This isn’t any reason to be Mattir Issurim!

If there’s something wrong with “hanging out”,it’s a symptom, not a disease. People think that closing pizza shops will save whatever is happening from happening, but it will just result in the type of people who would act out acting out in different, and likely worse ways.

Guess where I’m going to be Motzei Shabbos???

Just kidding. But seriously, this letter accomplishes the opposite of what it intended.

How many of the kids on Ave J are there because their parents sent them to hang out with other teens for some nice clean fun? They’re trying to rebel and specifically forbidding it will just heighten the excitement for them

I am reading some of these comments here with shock. Here’s why.

If we, as a community (parents, yeshivos/schools, shuls, etc.) do not make Yiddishkeit meaningful and rewarding, our kids will look for excitement elsewhere. All efforts to legislate this away with restrictions, bans, removal of hechsherim, etc. are all a ???? ?????. They will not work. All our fears about OTD will unfortunately remain intact and unaffected. Is there saichel around somewhere?

I didn’t read most of the comments above, but I just have to ask one question. Why would pizza store owners have any responsibility for the socialization that takes place in their place of business? Shouldn’t parents be responsible for where their teenagers are “hanging out”? Responsible parents, for example, could have their teen invite his/her friends to their home for a pizza party, which they can pick up or have delivered. The blame is going on the wrong people here.

writersoul: I think you are making an excellent point.

Do you agree with my post above (that this letter will end up working as reverse psychology)?