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teaare said: “dd: Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Not that I believe that you are part of the Yeshiva World now.)”
I certainly would rather be a yire shomayim and follow the Torah than be part of whatever group you (and popa and Sam etc) think that you are in. Your blatant disregard for the Torah (specifically hilchos lashon hara) and basic menschlichkeit make me glad to leave you and your ilk – regardless of whether the door hits me on the way out.
The Mods should be ashamed of allowing this thread to continue.
Not ashamed at all. Nothing has been said here which is not mainstream.
I get the impression, from the stuff above, that to be part of the Yeshivish world you have to join a moshav leitzim and say motsai sheim ra.
I wish people were only as careful as to what comes out of their mouth as what comes in their mouth.
If you really believe that that YCT is so bad, pray for them to get better (which I did). See Brachot 10a, where Bruriah tells her husband, Rebbi Meir, to pray for the return of the Biryonim and not speak ill of them. This moshav leitzim is not helping anyone.
PS – I love casting asperations on a “Talmid Chochom” who is “megaleh ponim b’torah”. I consider it a Kiddush Hashem.
Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.
It’s bad enough that you speak L”H, but you try to cover it up with “Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.” Your denial of your L”H makes it that much harder for you to do teshuva.
It’s bad enough that you speak L”H, but you try to cover it up with “Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.” Your denial of your L”H makes it that much harder for you to do teshuva.
And now you can do tshuva for saying Lashon Horah ’bout me. But its ok, I really don’t care.
I am only slightly familiar with this movement, and not at all with the person in question. I was commenting on the person’s status as a “Talmid Chochom” being irrelevant. But you can believe whatever you want.
Reminds me of the person who asked the Satmar Rebbe how he could be so vehement when talking about those he felt were rashaim (e.g., the Zionists who the Satmar Rebbe believed caused the holocaust) – didn’t Avraham daven for Sodom? The Satmar Rebbe answered, how do you know what Avraham said to them in public, or what I say in my tefillos?
actually its good middos to make fun of apikorsim
Shaila: Is it permitted to speak lashon hora?
Teshuva: Many sources do say that LH is prohibited, including some that compare LH to the three cardinal sins. However, in that context, a question must be asked – why is LH, unlike the three cardinal sins, permitted at risk of life?
It would seem that the deep meaning of this rabbinic adage is that there will come a time when YCT rabbis will permit aspects of all three cardinal sins, such as abortions, worshiping modern idols such as liberalism and feminism, and promoting non-marital gender mingling. Having liberated themselves of these sins, LH will become permitted as well.
[P.S. for serious answers see the Shaarei Teshuvah.]
This thread is disgusting and should be shut down. If YCT is problematic hashkafically or halachically, write an op-ed or academic article about respectfully analyzing their actual statements and actions (and if you don’t have the capacity to do that, what business do you have judging them?). Throwing out random obviously illegitimate “teshuvas” that even a Conservative rabbi wouldn’t make — that’s just offensive, bigoted and wrong. Derech eretz, people.
You want to write an op-ed for the site? Email it to the contact us. Meanwhile, what’s wrong with a few jokes about conservative “judaism”?
I think everyone here agrees that no one at YCT now would actually Pasken like this. It’s just a little fun at the expense of a group that is trying to change Judaism, even if it is a bit satirical. Would anyone be complaining if the title was “Conservative-style Teshuvas”? Just read it as that and there’s no real issue here.
In response to the bold response (presumably by a mod) on my comment: It’s not conservative Judaism — YCT is LWMO, and it’s not your role to re-categorize them. And unless people have any substantive knowledge about what they’re supposedly doing wrong and why, they shouldn’t be bashing them.
If conservatives redefine themselves as LWMO, people who practice Judaism have to suddenly respect them? Absolutely not.
Yytz: Rav Schachter called them Conservative. That’s good enough for me.
I would be more than happy to write a defense of YCT positions from a halachic and academic perspective. I actually began authoring a sefer exploring feminism, academic Jewish studies, interfaith dialogue, pluralism, environmentalism, social justice, universalism, religious humanism, advanced secular studies, and other areas from a historical and textual basis (I believe that it is a friendly and tolerant approach towards non-religious Jews, a non-racist approach towards non-Jews, and intellectual openness which separates our brand of Orthodoxy from those on the right).
PBA: That’s a bit arrogant. Academics sometimes (though in my studies very rarely) have a good perspective on things. Just because it doesn’t interest you doesn’t mean that it can’t be the Emes.
This article (R’ Benjamin Hecht on Yated and YCT) does a good job of explaining why people should not just blithely accuse YCT of heresy — it takes advanced study to determine if whether such accusations are valid.
Sam, I don’t think he means that. The point is that when you get very technical with quotes from historian’s assumptions of attitudes of bygone days (while ignoring attitudes expressed explicitly in Seforim) and generalizations based on a context that is a product of similar background, it will be very far from the normal attitude of a regular Yid, who have a better tendecy to pick up the true nuances of attitude from the Mesora.
We don’t have a Mesora on details of Mitzvos. We base Halachos mostly on Sefarim. But, in Hashkafa and attitude the Mesora is strongest. It is still a Toras Chaim.
HaLeiVi: I would say Ad’raba. The differences between those with more of a Rambam leaning and those with more of a Zohar/Arizal leaning are astronomical.
rebdoniel: Sounds to me like you already made up your mind, now you just have to cherry-pick sources that defend them. I have a better idea: How about learning lishmah? (I am willing to concede that from an environmental or feminist perspective, that is dangerous.)
Popa: You say you’ve read a lot of their rubbish on the Internet. Would you mind giving us some examples of these things, which in your understanding prove they are outside of rabbinic Judaism? If the mods won’t let you post links, then you could give us the names of the articles or sites.
Just for all those on this thread that keep on saying: “we are only making fun [of YCT]” you should all know that one of the worst sins -‘chatoim chamurim’ is “laitzonus”- to make fun and to dismiss- (see pachad Yitzchok on Purim) and you are guilty of much worse that just (just?) loshon horah. You have espoused the middah of amalek. (see pachad Yitzchok on purim).
I hold no brief for YCT as I know little of them but I do know that all of you who are abusing jewish people will answer for this in the other world.
Shkoiach for being moser din al chaveiro. With friends like that . . . .
Every single mainstream gadol who has discussed YCT has said that they are beyond the pale. They are de’ios kozvos. Leitzanusa d’avoda zara is muttar. Perversions of the Torah as the gedolim have said, surely qualify.
Check out Chazon Ish Emunah ubitachon 3rd Perek where he talks about Midos Tovos, Lashon Hara, yored imo l’chayav, are all dependant upon Halacha.
Rabbi – how did you miss the part of that ma’amer when he discusses how important it is to use the koach of litzanus in the right way?!
Make fun and dismiss what?
Sam, The attitude of following the Arizal and the Zohar Hakadosh didn’t start by the Arizal. The Rambam attitude didn’t start by the Rambam, either. However, the specific approaches did keep their shape, pretty much.
Attitudes are part of Toras Imecha, they go over better Midor Lidor.
teeare: I love how your first teshuva to permit treif was based entirely on the concept of daas torah.
to logician, midwestern and others…last time I looked YCT and its adherents are shomer shabbos and keep every mitzvah. It is certanly not avodah zarah (midwesterner) and it is very arguably only different in a question that has preoccupied many Poskim (the women’s role in Judaism)and that is still evolving AND BASED on Jewish history. So, you may certainly disagree with their view on some things but what most of you wrote is – to me- way beyond acceptable talk.
to sam2- I don’t know what Rav Shechter said but, if you allow YCT to be tarred and feathered , as you imply, you cannot argue agaisnt those who are so scathing about Zionism and Rav Kook zt’la shittah that is arguably much worse -in critic’s terms.
“Chachomim, hizharu bedivreichiem”
Hey Popa! What happened? Did the NY cops get you unfairly?!?
Headline on YWN: “NYPD, PBA At Odds Over Ticket Issuing”
Rabbiofberlin: Avi Shwartz and Dov Linzer have both published things that basically cross the line into denying Mesorah. That’s very different than Zionism or anything like that. There the argument is on what the Mesorah is, not whether or not the concept exists.
berliner rov: What you say about YCT is true, but not complete. The issue (at least my issue and my rabbi’s issue) with YCT is that their psakim are not informed by any kind of standard halakhic process as historically practiced by poskim. To be fair, this issue is present in many other camps, but YCT is more egregious than most because they loudly proclaim “b’shita” that extra-halakhic considerations justify the way they “push the envelope” and that those considerations in fact trump normative halakha (while at the same time carefully staying within the bounds of muttar — barely).
dd: My response to you didn’t go through before. I was probably a little to cynical. No, you don’t have to be a habitual motzi shem ra to be yeshivish. It’s just something that some yeshivish people do. Lot’s of other people do it too.
sam2- I only know YCT because it is the yeshiva founded and led by Rabbi Avi weiss. I don’t know the people you mention nor do I know their piskei halacha. If you tell me where I can find them, I’ll look them up. It is hard to believe that they deny “mesorah” Please show sources.
itche srulik- you seem to agree with me- almost totally. i know little about their approach to halacha- will be pleased to look at the sources.
All I said was that the way they are being mocked and “tarred and feathered” (english expression) is unacceptable to me. If you allow this approach to dominate, you allow the same thing to happen to Rav Kook’s shittah, to the shittah of Lubavitch and anything that veers-ever so slightly- from the yeshivish world. Again- “hizharu chcomim bedivreichim”
I agree with you on that point. “When they came for ploni I did not speak out…”. OTOH the coffeeroom is not the place for reasoned debate. It is the chazon ish shiur of moshav letzim and many shittos are mocked, though obviously not those of our gracious hosts. Enjoy the letzonus and if we ever meet in person I’ll tell you some equally good letzonus my (homburg-wearing) rebbi zt”l said about yeshivishism.
Rabbi: I meant Avi Weiss, not Schwartz. I am far too tired to be posting now. I’ll be back later after I take a nap (i.e. after Shabbos).
The issue (at least my issue and my rabbi’s issue) with YCT is that their psakim are not informed by any kind of standard halakhic process as historically practiced by poskim. To be fair, this issue is present in many other camps, but YCT is more egregious than most because they loudly proclaim “b’shita” that extra-halakhic considerations justify the way they “push the envelope” and that those considerations in fact trump normative halakha (while at the same time carefully staying within the bounds of muttar — barely).
That pretty much sums up modern orthodoxy in general, not just the “left-wing modern orthodoxy” of YCT.
homburg-wearing rebbi zt’l ? yeshivism? thank HKBH I have not succumbed to the pressure of the so-called leaders of the yeshivish world. I am not going to citifield !
shein: No adequate response to you would get by moderation
rabbiofberlin: I have not succumbed either, nor will I be going. The time would be put to much better use watching 3 stooges clips on youtube.
popa-bar-abba- do you have any indication that what i wrote is wrong? just because you call someone ‘conservative’ doesn’t make it so.
rabbiofberlin-“Just for all those on this thread that keep on saying: “we are only making fun [of YCT]” you should all know that one of the worst sins -‘chatoim chamurim’ is “laitzonus”
Rabbi Betsy from YCT came out with a heter.
i have absolutely no desire to start a thread on YCT or even conservative Jewry. Mu point is simple ; you are ‘moitzi shem ra’ on jews.Unless you can bring some proof (not just say- “I do”) then I would suggest you refrain from speaking loshon horah and being”motzi shme ra’. There is no “hetter’ to do this, regardless of the way you clothe it.
Speaking out against those who publicly advocate beliefs and practices which are against the Torah is neither Loshon Hora nor Motzee Shem Rah.
Please see:
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