Lets ditch the labels there are only 2 TYPES of Jews!

Well, to each his/her own, but I do not find the MO derech and limud either stale, stagnant, or fossilized. However, it indeed might not be correct to call it “modern” as it is the derech that Jews have followed for millenia.

Wolf –

Well said.

I would like to quote HaRav Avraham Yitzchak HaKohen Kook zatz’l on the subject…

“The Jewish People have become divided into two camps, through the categorization of Jews as “chareidi” and “chofshi” (secular).

These are new terms, which were not used in the past. Of course, not everyone is identical, especially in spiritual matters: but there was never a specific term to describe each faction. In this respect, we can certainly say that previous generations were superior to ours.

By emphasizing this categorization, we obstruct the path toward improvement and growth in BOTH camps. Those who feel that they belong to the religious camp look down on the secular camp. If they think about teshuva and improvement, they immediately cast their eyes in the direction of the secularists, devoid of Torah and mitzvot. They are confident that full repentance is required by the irreligious, not by them.

The secular Jews, on the other hand, are convinced that any notion of penitence is a religious concept, completely irrelevant to their lives.

It would be better if we could ALL concentrate on examining our OWN defects, and judge others generously. It could very well be that others have treasure-troves of merits, hidden from sight. We should recognize that there exists in each camp a latent force leading toward goodness. Each camp has much to improve upon, and could learn much from the positive traits of the other camp.

Let us be known by ONE name – Klal Yisrael. And let our prayer be fulfilled ‘May they all become agudah achat to fulfill Your will wholeheartedly.”

(from ‘Silver From the Land of Israel’ by R’ Chanan Morrison)

So wrong,

I have no idea what you are talking about. We don’t have a tv, don’t go swimming, and my wife covers her hair and wears long skirts.

so right, WIY, you’re completely wrong about Modern Orthodoxy. MO believes that we can integrate into modern society and still be good, frum Jews. It doesn’t believe in taking on unnecessary chumros to shelter ourselves from society. It definitely doesn’t allow for flagrant violations of halachah such as married women not covering hair. Are there women who don’t cover their hair? Yes, there are. Will a MO Rav say it’s allowed? No. But that isn’t a claim against MO Judaism. Look at the raid in Israel yesterday – would you say charedi Judaism allows lying and stealing from the government because a large group was doing it? No, you’d say they’re a minority who didn’t do what they’re supposed to. Same thing with MO people who don’t do what they’re supposed to.

wiy or so you claim, you seem to be using labels quite often, instead of doing it that put your money where your mouth is and kive up to what you suggested, (although your post indicates the exact opposite.

Helpful, I can’t speak for R. Miller, but as far as R. Schwalb goes, that is not at all what he was saying. R. Schwalb, steeped in Torah im Derech Eretz, did not have a problem with MO hashkafa (i.e., integration with the larger world while adhering to halachah). While there are significant differences between TIDE and Torah Umaadah, I do not think either would condemn the other so strngly. What R. Schwald has a problem with, as should we all, is the use of a particular hashkafa to justify violations of halacha. EDITED

RSRH:

As you know, Rav Schwab was the Rov of the TIDE Kehilla. In addition to his above quoted comments regarding modern orthodoxy, he also stated the following:

This, from the Rav of the Torah Im Derech Eretz kehilla. TIDE is not an integration into any foreign culture nor an entry in any sort of way, into the outside community. The idea there is for Jews to be literate and learned enough to present a positive impression and an effective message to the “outside world”, plus, the ability to withstand the powerful anti-Torah impressions and messages of the outside world. TIDE does not espouse sending Jewish children to outside Universities. Rav Hirsh made his own schools – he did not send his students outside of the community. TIDE also includes what Rav Hirsch called “austritt”, meaning that secular knowledge is only acceptable after it is separated from and discards secular culture, values, and environment. Modern Orthodoxy has omitted this fundamental condition.

Nobody is questioning the fact that there are people who would be willing to be MO or not religious at all. The issue is, What is MO and is it the preferable mode of Judaism? The fact that it is, to some, the only version, or the maximum, that they are willing to accept does not address the issue at hand. If Modern Orthodoxy would be a Kiruv stage for people who aren’t yet ready for real Torah life, that would be fine. The problem is that they consider themselves not a b’dieved, but a l’chatchilah – a full fledged legitimate lifestyle. They often even make claims of being superior to Torah Judaism. That is the problem – compromises sometimes have to be made for individuals who are on their way up. But to take those compromises and make believe they are not compromises at all, thereby fooling people who WOULD be able to go higher that they need not, or worse, that they are already the highest, is a terrible crime. While it is true that on an individual, private, level, we are allowed to even proactively cause someone to sin if by doing so we will have prevented him form committing a greater sin, nevertheless, we may never, ever institutionalize those sins, making a b’dieved into a l’chatchilah, making the exception into the rule.

The reason why it would be a mistake to view MO as merely responding to the times as opposed to making compromises, is because when a response involves lowering standards it becomes, by definition, a compromise. MO has incorporated their inadequacies into Orthodoxy – they officially allow, encourage, and even support things that are wrong. They changed the definition of wrong and right. The difference between traditional Orthodoxy and MO in regard to meeting the times is NOT a difference of quantity. It is the difference between keeping exceptional cases as exceptions versus making them into the rule.

The problem with Modern Orthodoxy is not what their Jews do, but what their Judaism says. Jews are imperfect – we know that and accept it – but Judaism is perfect, and unchangeable. We do not make over G-d in our own image.

I know many “MO” Jews who are very frum. The differnce between “MO” and not “MO” is the amount we accept and don’t protest the people or families who do not care to live within the halacha of the shulchan aruch and mesorah, in our shules and schools. That is we accept them in our community , and I’m not talking about people who don’t know better. The fact that all we care about is achdus shows that the other issues don’t really bother us. This is a symptom of a fundimental flaw in hashkofa.(I hope I am being clear and you understand what I am trying to say)

Raboisai, there’s actually only one type of Jew. The type you must embrace as a brother. The type you must defend with your life. The type you must be moser nefesh to help when he is in trouble. The type you have to work with to bring the geulah. The type you have to teach and to learn from. And if you don’t know who that type is or how to take his hand, then you need to figure out if YOU are the type of Jew you must be.