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I don’t consider food stamps charity for someone where at least one parent is paying taxes. We pay so much taxes- why should only the goyim benifit?! If I have been working for 10 years and then I marry someone who is going to learn, why shouldn’t i take the opportunity to benifit from what I paid? The money is already there- why shouldn’t it support torah learning?!
I’m guessing those of you who are making comments about taxes and foodstamps, don’t really understand how our tax system works or what food stamps are.
There is no possible debate that foodstamps and other programs are charity. The American government established these systems to help feed and shelter people who cannot afford it. It is 100% charity!
If you are sacrificing to be in Kollel, but on these programs, you are not really sacrificing – you are relying on the tzedaka of the American public.
Philosopher, your comments are really ironic “Middle classes gets squeezed so lets keep people on social services.” Um, that’s backwards. REDUCE government spending (and social programs is just one area) and taxes will go down. The money has to come from somewhere.
I would really like to see a Kollel couple who can make it on a teachers salary while taking no government benefits. Without side jobs. At least when pushing Kollel teachers should be realistic.
Missme: Please do Klal Yisroel a Tova and post which school only CHARGES 2K per month. My guess is that it is in EY, New Square or Monroe, and is only available for those who live in those towns.
I imagine if it is in metro NYC, they will get a large enrollment boost as soon as you tell us which school it is (which will only help the school).
SJS: “At least when pushing Kollel teachers should be realistic.”
Why? A high school student can’t handle the truth.
lets say its “charity for the american public” but who is funding this charity fund? The American working public. Its just like taking Social security at the right time. I think its wrong that people live on food stamps their whole life and never work but I think anyone who pays taxes for most of their life has the right to get back some help for the govt. besides, if you ask me, i would much rather give “charity” to kollel families than others.
SJSinNYC-
I mentioned this earlier on in the thread. My brother, who learns and lives in Lakewood, doesn’t receive any benefits from the government, or get any financial support from my parents or his in-laws. My sister-in-law has a degree from a diploma mill and probably makes the same salary as a teacher.
My brother said this is possible because he goes to a morning kollel that pays, receives a monthly stipend from the yeshiva, takes tests on what he learns to earn some extra cash, tutors, and goes to a night kollel that pays. (You may consider this a side job?)
When we visit our parents together I’m always jealous of how much time he spends learning, both in the house and at shul, and wish I could learn as serious as he does.
Dr. Pepper – How many kids does he have?
missme – I pay $3500 in a brooklyn chasidishe cheder, and it’s not the full price. section 8 is closed. I don’t see how it’s possible to live on a teachers income. I am still living in my 1 bedroom apt. because I can’t afford to pay $2000 rent a month with my job.
SJS – So you want someone to be the only fool and stop taking money from the goverment to reduce goverment spending?
Any married couple, learning or working or otherwise should have a realistic budget showing their expenses and income. Hoping money magically shows up when you need it is a formula for disaster when you suddenly find that they money you need is not there.
Also stay away from credit cards!
Dr. Pepper – kol hakavod to your brother and sister in law. They are doing it the proper way and sacrificing for Torah. Do they have school aged children? Do they know how they are going to deal with that?
Speaktruth, we pay taxes for many things we don’t use. We also get lots of benefits for things we do use, disproportionately to what we pay. That’s the way a tax system works. Social security is a different ball of wax.
“besides, if you ask me, i would much rather give “charity” to kollel families than others. ”
I hate when people say this. Others take advatage of the system, so we should? When others lie, cheat and steal, shouldn’t we also? Is that the type of Judaism we are running nowadays? No wonder Moshiach isn’t here.
So you want someone to be the only fool and stop taking money from the goverment to reduce goverment spending?
Actually, the fools are those who stay on services. They are not helping out the overall country and just assisting in putting us further behind. Whatever happened to “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” Learning Torah is a wonderful thing. It is not exclusive to Kollel society. Sacrificing for Torah is a wonderful thing. Getting government services is not really sacrificing for Torah.
SJS, please spare us your holier than thou attitude, and do not compare legally qualifying for food stamps and medicaid to “lie, cheat and steal”. Yes, Jews pay taxes that pays for food stamps, medicaid and Jews should be no less willing to LEGALLY accept what they qualify for than African-Americans who LEGALLY utilize these services in far greater numbers and percentages. I’d even venture to say Jews use government service a lot less than the overall use by the population at large.
I’d strongly encourage every single Yid who qualifies for any of these gov’t services to take full advantage of them to the full extent of the law makes it available to them. To not do so, it to be a fool.
I didn’t compare taking services to lying, cheating or stealing. I was referencing the point about “Well non Jews do it, so we can too.”
I am not holier than thou. I am trying to show people that living off government services is bad for society at large. What is bad for society at large is bad for the Jews.
And yes, I think its immoral to put yourself in position to need government services. You don’t have to agree, but that doesn’t make me holier than thou.
I wonder if you realize what a chillul hashem it is when non Jews discover that large percentages of Jews put themselves in situations to qualify for government services. I’ve had to defend this to non-Jews in the past. Its not pleasant.
Tell those anti-semites that
1) Less Jews (percentage) than the population at large use governmental welfare services
2) Jews pay more (percentage) taxes than the population at large
Thus Jews who legally qualify for medicaid, food stamps, etc. are fully entitled and expected to take full advantage.
Tell them to start worrying about the far larger numbers (hard numbers and percentage wise) of African Americans, Hispanics, and other ethnic groups that put themselves in a situation or lazy around to require services.
myfriend, finding a situation abhorrant (choosing to rely on government services rather than getting a job) does not make someone an anti-semite. Especially since they don’t only hate this behavior in Jews – they hate it in all segments of society. Please do not call someone an anti-semite unless they exhibit anti-semitic behavior as it dilutes the real claims of anti-semitism. Think of the boy who cried wolf.
Please cite where you get that information. Please show me that the percentage of Jews on government services is less than the overall population. Please show me how we pay more taxes – we generally have more children and give to charitable organizations, hence we lower our tax rates.
Just because you are “entitled” to a service, doesn’t mean you should take it. Do you do that with Judaism also? You never look into the spirit of the law or try to go lefnim meshuras hadin? Do you never try to avoid a leniency, even though its technically ok?
They don’t support other people playing the system. They just don’t like the way Jews have systematically set up a system to allow this.
One person actually told me that they prefer many of the illegal immigrants to people who leech off of government services because many illegal immigrants work really hard and the leechers contribute very little.
Statistics are widely available showing Jews have higher than average incomes thus they pay more real tax dollars into the system then the population at large.
Just because you are “entitled” to a service, doesn’t mean you should take it. Do you do that with Judaism also? You never look into the spirit of the law or try to go lefnim meshuras hadin? Do you never try to avoid a leniency, even though its technically ok?
Absolutely one should accept every government dollar he is entitled to, whether food stamps or whatever. His Jewish brethren pays taxes for that purpose, it should go less disproportionately to non-Jews who ARE more than willing to take everything offered? Rubbish. Take every penny available. Jews pay more taxes than average.
There is NO concept of “lefnim meshuras hadin” with governmental monetary issues. That idea is absolutely absurd and insane.
We pay more and we are entitled to take what is offered. We still are putting in more than we take out, relative to the population at large.
says who-
My brother has 4 kids. I don’t know the exact amount he pays for tuition but it is considerably less in Lakewood than in NY. (He also said that no one in Lakewood gets tuition breaks since then no one would pay tuition. I’m not sure how that works though.)
As far as being the only one to be a fool and not take money which wasn’t intended for them- you’d probably consider me to be a fool. If a store doesn’t charge me sales tax, I insist on paying by credit card so they are forced to charge the sales tax, otherwise I will not make the purchase. When our bank made a mistake in our favor I made numerous phone calls to fix the error and give them back the money which was not rightfully mine. When I had car repairs done on our car I offered to repay the insurance company for prior damage that was repaired.
I didn’t do this do save the government, bank or insurance company from going bankrupt, I did it so after 120 years I can honestly say that to the best of my ability I never took money from anyone that wasn’t intended for me.
Dr. Pepper said:
As far as being the only one to be a fool and not take money which “wasn’t intended” for them
I didn’t say that.
myfriend-
I don’t see where SJSinNYC has a holier than thou attitude.
Let’s take a different scenario for example. Would you advise someone to make a short stop when they see a tailgater behind them so that they can claim whiplash and collect a large insurance payout?
Why not? Lot’s of other people do it, and besides the money can be used to support someone in learning. Also, after paying premiums for car insurance for so many years one is entitled to get back many times more than they paid. Right?
Just as insurance payments are intended for people who are legitimately injured or otherwise damaged in an accident (not those who put themselves in that situation to make money off the company) so too government benefits were designed for people who fall into a situation where they are trying hard to make ends meet but can’t. Government benefits were not designed to be used in financial planning.
The excuses that “everyone else does it”, “I paid taxed I’m entitled to it” or that “the money is going to support someone in learning” doesn’t make it right.
Dr. Pepper –
You missed the point. You are talking about fraud. I am not. I am talking about what one is LEGALLY entitled to accept UNDER THE LAW as passed by Congress and the State Legislature.
government benefits were designed for people who fall into a situation where they are trying hard to make ends meet but can’t.
Indeed. That’s what it is by and large used for by our brethren. (That being said, I should note there is no legal requirement that they be “trying hard to make ends meet” as a test of qualifications for benefits.)
Government benefits were not designed to be used in financial planning.
Baloney. There are legal advertised financial planners who will advise how to utilize Medicare, Medicaid, etc. There is no law against financially planning based on benefits. If you feel there should be, petition Congress. Until then, it is fully legal, and will continue.
Is it 3500 – 4000 PER child for someone with 6 tuition aged children? What part of the US do you live? (I assume you are in the US.)
Missme your assumption that I can get an pay lower schar limud based on the number of children I have in mosdos isn’t correct.
First of all, assuming I have six kids, one of them is still a baby. Second of all, if I would only have boys it is very likely that one would already be in yeshiva or going into Yeshiva so that makes it four in one cheder. But it is highly likely that I would have daughters as well so that makes it less children in cheder as my daughters attend school. Therefore I wouldn’t qualify for a discount, unless all I only had daughters which isn’t the case.
Most people do pay between $3,500 and upwards in Chassidishe mosdos. I would assume Satmar in Brooklyn is the only mosdos that charges less.
I have never seen a demographic study done showing Jews pay higher taxes. If I had to guess, it would be white, single males that pay most taxes.
Actually, a short stop and being rearended is no fault to the front driver. The rear driver has the responsibility to avoid the accident and should be further back. Once hit, if the person has whiplash, why shouldn’t they sue? Its 100% legal.
We may not have to be extra vigilant with government services, but we do to avoid chillul hashem. And right now this system IS causing one. But lets forget about that for a moment – lets look at how its permeating the thought process within our communities. I was just talking to a woman who told me she was sending her kids to summer camp. They can’t afford it, but since they can’t pay full tuition for their kids anyway, why not send the kids to camp and just pay the school less? The school will allow it. Since when do we have to pay for our neighbors luxuries? Its a TERRIBLE attitude. This was a stay at home mom so its not like she needed her kids in camp.
Remember, there are also services (like section 8) that have limited allowances. Sometimes, you need to wait a long time to get them because others are utilizing them. You may be keeping a truly poor family out of housing because you WANT to take it. I would rather the services go to the truly poor, then someone who just wants it to support a certain type of lifestyle.
Welfare programs were designed to help people get back on their feet, not play the game as long as they can. If financial planners utilize these services to help people “plan” it may be legal, but still immoral.
As for tuition in Lakewood – what I heard is there are two rates. Kollel families get a modest break ($500/child or so). Working parents get the regular rate. I never asked my cousin with 11 kids what she pays, but considering her husband is learning in Kollel still and she is the sole breadwinner, I highly doubt she is paying $50,000/year in tuition.
Philosopher, your comments are really ironic “Middle classes gets squeezed so lets keep people on social services.” Um, that’s backwards. REDUCE government spending (and social programs is just one area) and taxes will go down. The money has to come from somewhere.
SJS, I agree one million percent with your idea that REDUCE government spending (and social programs is just one area) and taxes will go down However that AINT’ gonna happen. America is rotten to the core.
That’s why you’ve got millions of illegals, millions of African Americans, maybe millions of white Americans or at least hundreds of thousands and millions of Spanish benefitting from programs even though it chokes the hardworking (I’m not saying those that are on these social programs are not hardworking) middle class who pay for all of this (the rich also do, but it doesn’t choke them) and the government doesn’t give a hoot, since the politicians themselves are dependent on such a system for their political carrer, it won’t change.
Because of this reality, I fargin those frum Jews who do benefit from this system, especially if would there be no frum Jews who benefit from these programs my taxes wouldn’t get lowered by a half a penny.
I don’t understand.
The people that are taking money from government services to go to Kollel, are doing it (legally) in order to learn Torah. Why is this a problem? I think the mitzvah of talmud Torah supersedes the “chumrah” of not being on welfare.
If things get too tight, its a siman that its time to move on and the yungerman can find a job then. Until then, why do you want to take someone out of kollel?
Even if he only did it because its “the thing to do”, limud Torah is still shakul kneged kulam.Is HKB”H going to punish someone for learning Torah?
I really don’t understand what the foundation of the argument is here.
Missme, I would really appreciate if you wouldn’t preach to me as if I don’t understand the holiness of learning torah. My point is the holiness of Shalom Bayis and that it is not one sided. AND that you keep creating the scenario that Wives are “thrilled” to sacrifice so that their husbands can continue to learn and that is not always the case. So I would like to bring into this discussion the reality that there are many, many young women who started out with all good intentions and have found that they are just NOT CUT out for the sacrifice!
DH:
I apologize for being condescending, But I noticed in another thread that you are from EY. Totally different mindset, you are not expected to understand why someone would not want to take money from the government.
BTW: I agree with MF. There is no reason why you can’t plan your life around government benefits (Chillul Hashem aside, but that is too “technical” of a topic regarding what would constitute a Chillul Hashem).
Tuition is a different issue and more problematic.
Missme, our out of town school (that has both boys’ and girls’ divisions) has a discount of a few hundred per additional child. Not complaining, but that’s about it. Everyone’s entitled to that discount. Then comes the tuition assistance question.
aries:
The holiness of Shalom Bayis? Of course, I’ve discussed it. If the husband wishes to continue Limud Torah, the wife in the interests of Shalom Bayis should strongly take action to enable him to.
Sacrifice? Of course, sometimes the couple realizes that they are NOT CUT out for the sacrifice of the holiest mitzvah, kneged kulum, of Limud Torah, and therefore continue engaging and basking in the holiness.
Missme, men do continue learning after leaving kollel. They just learn from 5 – 9. And some of them go on to become great talmidei chachamim, magidei shiurim (daf yomi and beyond, and daf yomi to a pretty demanding crowd at that).
And I know professionals who made some amazing decisions to be able to get a consistent amount of daily quality learning in.
It’s not either or. It would be refreshing if the message got out.
Missme- are you talking from the experienced side? Because you’re not being VERY realistic, and it seems like you’re talking before you tried it.
Missme: we are still waiting for the name of the school.
Sounds like smartcookie is right. Go around the block a bit, then come back.
myfriend- Let’s say you’re approaching a yellow light and you notice someone is tailgating you. If you make a short stop and are rear ended- the person in the back is 100% liable. Being that you were involved in an accident you have the right to sue. Depending on how much you are asking for the insurance company may settle out of court for a modest amount. This is not what insurance is intended for. Now, assuming that you did not misrepresent anything, where is the fraud?
Legally there is nothing wrong with this, ethically there is. Payments caused by behavior like this, while legal, bring up the premiums for all policy holders.
Same with government benefits. While technically it is legal to put yourself in a situation where you will be legally entitled to benefits, it is ethically wrong as that is not what it is intended for (and you bring up the taxes for the ordinary hard working people).
I have no problem with anyone who is trying hard to make ends meet yet legitimately needs government help from using it.
As far as saying that “Government benefits were not designed to be used in financial planning” is “baloney” based on “legal advertised financial planners who will advise how to utilize Medicare, Medicaid, etc”, I’m going to disagree with you for three reasons.
1- Just because someone advertises- doesn’t mean that everything they do is legal. There are lawyers who advertise on the subway, does that mean that if they misrepresent the facts to get a larger settlement that it is legal? After all, they did advertise legally.
2- I never said it was illegal, I said that it’s not what it was meant for.
3- Are those advertisements geared towards college age students trying to convince them to drop out and live off the government, or towards families that need government help? Hopefully to families that already need the services.
to be honest i didn’t read the whole thread but –
who says you have to go to college to support a learning husband? my sister is married now 10 yrs k”h with 5 kids and is supporting her family without any help from parents and in – laws, or without any college degree. She is a real go-getter and worked her way up but this mishigas with degrees is really ridiculous.
someone posted that after a few years the wife gets burnt out and can’t tell her husband she doesn’t want that way of life. i know this is on another tangent but- Hello! A wife should be able and comfortable to communicate with her husband her true and honest feelings!!! one of the major keys to a good shalom bayis is COMMUNICATION and not expect each other to understand automatically.
one of you mentioned about oot community kollels. Well i also live oot and they do support very nicely. (your community sounds even better) however, not always are the kollelim open to taking new couples unless they have a sponsor. It’s a LOT of work raising money for these kollelim. i know of a few people who would LOVE to join the some of the kollelim here but couldn’t because there werent funds.
Lastly for all those who said that when the families get large and there are weddings and bar mitzvas,… and thats where the problems start, well i know of quite a few families where the parents are well into forties or fifties and are still learning. If both REALLY want it, Hashem sends extra siyata dishmaya. (again NOt talking about parents supporting)
and btw about parents supporting- it’s very complicated sometimes. i know of a very very very wealthy family that supports probably all their kids, and not going into detail but i feel very bad for the daugher-in-laws. Everything has to be the way the parents want it cuz they’re supporting. I would be MISERABLE. i’d much rather live very very simply then live well and fancy but have my in laws stick their nose into every little decision of my life. They’re “mechuyav” to do whatever the in laws want cuz they’re fully supporting
There is NO concept of “lefnim meshuras hadin” with governmental monetary issues. That idea is absolutely absurd and insane.
While I know that I am absolutely absurd and insane, I believe that one should always attempt to maintain the utmost in personal integrity in financial matters — whether it be with a Jew, a non-Jew or the government.
The Wolf
Sof davar-
someone posted that after a few years the wife gets burnt out and can’t tell her husband she doesn’t want that way of life. i know this is on another tangent but- Hello! A wife should be able and comfortable to communicate with her husband her true and honest feelings!!!
THAT is exactly the problem. It’s not that the woman have no communication. They just feel bad stopping their husbands from learning. They feel that if they complain, then they’ll send their hub out of kollel. Instead they complain to the whole rest of the world.
Girls today need to be taught that a woman’s place is her HOME and her KIDS. They need to stop preaching about kollel.
Very nice for those who learn. But the woman IS NOT IN CHARGE OF PARNASSAH.
You cannot work on the expense of your kids. I’ve been through it. And I regret every minute that I wash a washed out/nervous mother because I have zero koach after coming home from work.
Wolf: One can have “personal integrity” and still ask for a handout.
It’s called lobbying 🙂
Wolf: One can have “personal integrity” and still ask for a handout.
It’s called lobbying 🙂
IIRC, lobbying isn’t about money (although it could be). Usually groups don’t lobby for money, but for favorable laws and/or policies (which may well lead to more money).
The Wolf
I’d strongly encourage every single Yid who qualifies for any of these gov’t services to take full advantage of them to the full extent of the law makes it available to them. To not do so, it to be a fool.
Fair enough. I already knew I was a fool, but I guess now I am doubly so.
The Wolf
IIRC, lobbying isn’t about money (although it could be). Usually groups don’t lobby for money, but for favorable laws and/or policies (which may well lead to more money).
If you look at the reasons why MOST lobyists lobby, you’ll see money is the bottom line. Whichever way you want to put it, that’s lobbying for money.
If you look at the reasons why MOST lobyists lobby, you’ll see money is the bottom line. Whichever way you want to put it, that’s lobbying for money.
Okay. You win. Not worth arguing over.
The Wolf
It is totally unfair that the onus is constantly put on the “WIFE” or woman. NO she doesn’t HAVE to tell her husband how she feels. HE should notice some things on his own and HE should be able to tell when things are getting too much for her. SHE should not have to complain about it. HE should have enough hakaros hatov to his Eishes Chayil that he is keeping an eye on the issue and not be blinded to it. A MAN is not entitled to this “luxury” and I will say it again, IT IS A LUXURY when a wife takes over a husband’s obligation to be mepharnes the family and allows him to sit and learn Torah. For him it is an amazing luxury to not worry about working and finances, but to be able to concentrate on the pure joy of learning, emes hana’ah and luxury.
So a MAN should have gratitude. Yes he should be grateful every single day and have an eye on the situation and realize if it is going as well for his wife as it is going for him. HE should ask how she is doing and how she is feeling. HE should show as much concern for her needs as she is showing for his. Marriage is not one sided and should not be only about what the husband’s needs and desires are about. So to make that the focus of the family is unrealistic and a lesson in disaster. Saying that SHE should tell him is asking her to cop out on her agreement and that is exactly what she is afraid to do. HE has to make it safe for her to say that she can no longer continue and needs to stop.
A good wife will WANT her husband to learn as long as possible. A good wife will NOT cop out on her agreement to allow her husband to learn. A good wife will not expect her husband to be a mind reader. A good wife will have infinite appreciation and gratitude that her husband is a LEARNER. And a good wife will do everything in her power to insure her husband learns as longs as possible, as much as possible.
I’m with Aries.
I’m with missme.
“someone posted that after a few years the wife gets burnt out and can’t tell her husband she doesn’t want that way of life. i know this is on another tangent but- Hello! A wife should be able and comfortable to communicate with her husband her true and honest feelings!!!”
That would be the ideal situation, BUT – the problem is that girls are indoctrinated in yeshivah and seminary with the idea of men’s fulltime learning as THE ONLY proper way of life. They fear being ostracized by their community if they were to actually express the radical thought that they are burnt out and not happy campers with this deal that really benefits the husband more than anyone else. It surely does not benefit the children they are having each year, with no mommy at home to take care of them. I apologize if I am offending anyone,but I have always felt and always will feel, that a woman’s primary responsibility is to her children, to be physically present for them at home, except in circumstances that are beyond her control, i.e, not having an able-bodies husband who can earn the parnassah.
“the problem is that girls are indoctrinated in yeshivah and seminary with the idea of men’s fulltime learning”
That’s no problem. They SHOULD be taught it is the best lifestyle. Because IT IS. One word of Torah learning imparts more holiness than an entire lifetime of doing other Mitzvos. Nothing compares. Nothing comes close. Not Kiruv, not Tzedakah, not Hatzalah, nothing. Please note, that all those other endeavors – the Mitzvah ones – are glorious and wonderful forms of Avodas Hashem. But Torah learning is a billion times greater. One world of Torah learning can bring more kedusha into this world than a lifetime of anything else.
It’s simply this: If I showed you a pile of coins and gave you 1 hour to collect as much as you can, you would spend as much time gathering the gold as you could. Torah is the greatest Mitzvah – one word of Torah, Chazal say, is more holy than an entire lifetime of doing Mitzvos. And we have one lifetime to gather our gold. Someone who appreciates that doesn’t care if he is halachicly obligated of not. Everyone agrees that learning Torah is gold. Even if you are not halachicly obligated to run after it.
Yes, a woman’s place is at home. But also yes, the type of home you are supposed to have is a Torah home, a Torah-husband and Torah-father at its helm.
The question is, if you can only have one of those two positive elements of a home, which is more important? The answer is having a husband and father who is a Talmid Chacham, or better yet, the biggest Talmid Chacham he can be, is the more important of the two. So if you can have both, fine; if not, then we choose learning.
And what does a good HUSBAND do? So far all we have heard from you is what a Good Wife is all about. Let’s hear what a Good Husband is about, since all you are concerned about is that women should be good little girls and do whatever their husbands need.
Is your definition of a good Husband one that sits and learns Torah? Because I don’t agree that has nothing to do with being a Husband; that is a man’s obligation whether he is married or not. Once a man gets married he takes on other obligations. A good HUSBAND is one who is considerate of his wife and shows her the proper respect, attention, love and concern that SHE deserves and that is in addition to hakaros hatov!.
See my last post for what a GOOD HUSBAND does.
myfreind, while a Torah lifestyle is a beautiful life for those who can live it, such a life is not a chiuv for those who can, because the Torah was not given to angels and we each have our own paths in avodas Hashem.
One however, cannot expect a husband to simply ask a wife what is bothering her if he suspects that she is unhappy with her current lifestyle. If he needs to go out to work he’ll be unhappy. So it’s highly unlikely he’ll ask her what’s bothering her, especially if he knows what the answer will be. Whether it’s right or not the husband should be the one to initiate a conversation about this is beside the point. It’s unrealistic to expect that.
If the wife or husband wants to discuss something, they need to be mature and start the discussion, not hope that their spouse will pick up on their unhappiness. Because chances are, they’re going to ignore it.
I meant to write such a life is not a chiuv for those who can’t…
myfriend, it is not ALL or NOTHING. Learning Torah is very important but you can still learn Torah and and a mother can still be at home. What you are talking about is ALL or NOTHING, which is two extremes.
You also ask what is more important for a mother to be at home or for a father to learn Torah. That is not a balanced question because as I said a mother can be at home while a father learns torah. Chinuch Bonim is a very important obligation for parents. We have learnt that there is a very big disadvantage to many children when the mothers are not at home to raise them. We have an enormous percent of children with learning disabilities, speech problems, at-risk issues, etc.
This also has not worked out so well for the Women who are expected to be Superwomen, Supermommies and Superwives. YOU can say all you want how important it is to learn Torah and it is, but that doesn’t mean that a man does not have any other obligation and that he can ignore ALL his other obligations and only concentrate on this one. A MAN has obligations to his wife, to his children, to his marriage and his family and he is not absolved of any of these obligations because of his choice. Even if his wife agrees to support him in his learning that still does not absolve him of his obligations! He is still obligated to show hakaros hatov, he is still obligated to take care of his wife and take care of his children. He still has to know when the agreement is working and when it is no longer viable.
Nowhere have I indicated anything is all or nothing. Learning Torah all day itself is a very successful form of Chinuch Habonim. The Gedolim have clearly indicated, for the many reasons I outlined above, learning all day is worth the tradeoff of the wife working, even though the latter isn’t ideal in itself.
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