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oommis-I don’t understand why you are so against my teacher. All she did was mention that college, support…is not e/t in life for everyone. For every person different measures work best. For her, she is able to support her family while her husband learns. Good for her. She is NOT encouraging us to do the same, she is just showing that Baruch Hashem, it works for her nicely and no, she is not one of the paupers in town. There is no set rule for everyone. If it works for you kol hakovod, and if it doesn’t kol hakavod too.
I don’t know what teachers make over here.
And of course the cost of living is significantly lower, but I was suggesting that someone who can secure a low-average paying job that can be done here can make it.
anonymrs, I didn’t say that they are not showing their husbands how they feel. I said that they feel emotionally removed from their husbands because they are not noticing or choose not to see how they feel on their own. A wife does not have to come out and say she is tired or exhausted. It certainly does show on her face and body and it shows in her action or inaction. A husband certainly should be able to tell when a wife is happy and motivated or unhappy and drained without being told. Again, I didn’t say that anything was hidden and the husband had to be a mind reader. That in itself is a huge part of the problem.
Rebbetzin, unfortunately you are absolutely right. The initial negotiations have nothing to do with what’s best for the couple. It has to do with the wants and desires of the parents.
A good wife will go out of her way to make her husband happy and encourage him to continue his learning full speed ahead, even if it makes things a bit difficult for her.
even if it makes things a bit difficult for her.
Missme: there’s a difference between a bit difficult-(not buying new clothing, not going out for suppers), and a wife that’s drained physically from juggling a job and household together.
Mothers are not machines.
aries, i agree but how is a man supposed to know the diff between “my wife is exhausted because its 10 at night” and “my wife is exhausted because shes had a long/hard day at work/with the kids” if she doesnt tell him which it is? how can a woman become resentful of the fact that her husband isnt picking it up if it is not obvious? spouses are not mind readers, and many (men especially) prefer to stay out of anything that is emotionally charged, if they can. so if a woman can be exhausted for many reasons, her husband may pick the simplest reason, if she doesnt give him anything else to go with.
aries2756, I’m not even talking about when it’s not best for the couple. I’m talking about the couple that wants it initially but are too stubborn to change direction when real life happens.
by the way, to those making calculations… first of all most kollel couples get foodstamps, and insurance through medicaid is free. that’s first of all. second of all, through my own personal experience, and through many others i’ve heard about- try as you might to figure it out on paper, but when you come to a kollel life,you won’t get an answer. my bills get paid. how? I have no idea. it doesn’t add up, but somehow it works. there were times that we needed money asap (like to pay the car service when i went into labor on shabbat-yea, without money it would be pretty bad) and lo and behold somehow we got it (tutoring kid came on friday specially to pay us)! i know someone that was doing pesach cleaning and found a large amount of money in the process- that was over 20 years old! (forgot what its called- kinda like a cd in a check-make sense?) this person told me- “and to think i was worried about covering my pesach expenses! hashem takes care of all of us!” – and this wasn’t a kollel couple either. hashem sends! and, there are always side jobs that can be done not during yeshiva time- tutoring,chazanut, or whatever other talent one has. maybe the husband can do something during bein hazmanim too (c’mon, be creative!)oh,and there are a lot of gemachs out there to help out too. living a kollel life means learning to sacrifice
sms-I enjoy reading your post. Just proves that there is nothing to difficult for Hashem to do. As long as you put in your hishtadlus, Hashem fills in the rest even if it doesn’t make sense to us.
Re my last post and mentioning sheifa and love of Torah: should have been that that’s exactly what I did mean. I wasn’t referring to average re ability to learn.
And sms007: I don’t know what it’s like now but it can take a long time to qualify for some programs, and there might be extra help needed while on mailing lists.
tzippi:
That (time delay to get approved, mainly HUD) is why you apply in high school!
Sms, utilizing food stamps, HUD and gemachs means living your life off the charity of others. That’s not supporting yourself off of one income. If you do side jobs, that’s additional work (hishtadlus) not just relying on Hashem. Hashem helps those who help themselves.
tzippi- foodstamps took about a month, medicaid, right away (by the next enrollment period-like with all insurances)
sjsinnyc- who ever said you have to support yourself off one income? and i mentioned before that the amount of hishtadlut one does is according to how he feels secure. some people feel like they want to do those extra side jobs as a form of hishtadlut to feel more secure. hashem helps everybody. period. everything hashem created is for us to do reson hashem- including foodstamps. i know someone who had a bris and they lived in a different state while their whole family, extended family lived in a different state. when they had a simcha, at that exact time, a new airline opened up selling tickets for 30 dollars- no joke, maybe even cheaper. everyone came in for the simcha. including extended family and people who wouldn’t have came otherwise. the whole plane was that family. it even reached the news stations.guess what? right after that simcha, the airline closed down, and never opened again. hashem created this world to do his torah and mitzvot, right? and- what’s HUD?
“oommis-I don’t understand why you are so against my teacher. All she did was mention that college, support…is not e/t in life for everyone. For every person different measures work best. For her, she is able to support her family while her husband learns. Good for her. She is NOT encouraging us to do the same, she is just showing that Baruch Hashem, it works for her nicely and no, she is not one of the paupers in town. There is no set rule for everyone. If it works for you kol hakovod, and if it doesn’t kol hakavod too. “
I think you missed my point. I am not against your teacher, I am sure she is a lovely young woman. She is also extremely idealistic, and paints an unrealistically rosy picture for all of her students, EVEN if her lifestyle works for her.
When someone you look up to tells you how amazing her life is, you want to emulate her in every way. That means that person has a responsibility to say, “this works for me, but you may have a very different experience.” Otherwise you risk being so disenchanted when possibly your own experience does not work out as hers did, and developing very negative feelings. You have to hear and examine BOTH sides of the story, before deciding this is for you, no questions asked.
Sms- funny- we had such a story at a family wedding. A new airline opened then, with cheap prices. All of us went. it was so much fun bec it was like a family plane!!
After that, this airline vanished and we never heard about it again!
It opened for us!!
hey do i know you????? actually, wasn’t a wedding
Anon, A husband should ASK if he doesn’t know. Just as he would ask a shailah in yeshiva, if he is confused at home he should ask what is wrong, what is bothering his wife, what he can do to help, etc.
Rebbetzin, maybe that is something that needs to be taught in chosson/kallah shiurim. Obviously people grow, evolve and mature with age and they also change with circumstance and challenge. People make choices according to their need and variables. Kids need to be taught that as they evolve as a couple and grow as a family they will be faced with challenges and they might have to review their choices. It is not an aveirah to change one’s mind or make a different choice according to one’s situation. Agreements need to be discussed and re-evaluated at various intervals to make sure they are still applicable and are still working for both partners. Shalom Bayis has to be the top priority for the health and success of the entire family.
As for a wife putting themselves out a bit for the sake of what their husband’s love, that is a two way street and husbands have to do the same for their wives. Maybe moreso in this type of situation because they should be showing hakaros hatov, gratitude and appreciation for all the time and opportunity their wives gave them while the wives carried their responsibility of being mepharnes the family and allowed them the luxury of learning Torah.
aries: Learning Torah is not a “luxury”.
SmS- nope! This one was for a wedding! But mybe that bar mitzvah was at the same time so it opened for both of us!
“As for a wife putting themselves out a bit for the sake of what their husband’s love, that is a two way street and husbands have to do the same for their wives. Maybe moreso in this type of situation because they should be showing hakaros hatov, gratitude and appreciation for all the time and opportunity their wives gave them while the wives carried their responsibility of being mepharnes the family and allowed them the luxury of learning Torah. “
This was so good, I had to post the entire paragraph. And yes, at some point, choosing to sit and learn when your family is in dire need of your earning a parnassah IS a luxury. You can always learn early in the morning, on your breaks, while commuting by train (not by car, because gas is more expensive), and late at night AFTER you have helped take care of your own kids, spent some real time with them, and reminded your wife of why she wanted to marry you in the first place.
sms, I was referencing the teacher who could make it on one salary. At least in the US, with children, its impossible to do without tzedaka. Food stamps is charity from the American public. Living in Kollel may mean sacrificing, but it also means relying on the charity of others (like gemachs, reduced tuition, medicaid, foodstamps). [HUD is charitable housing credits]
I for one could not live with my family taking charity when one of us has the means to go out and get a job to feed us.
SJS, either you jest or are woefully mistaken. It is very possible to live on one salary in a kollel life, without resorting to any tzedaka.
The only reason for that mistake, is to equate a fashionable lifestyle as being necessary. It is not.
missme, I said with children. Please tell me how you can pay tuition while living on one teacher salary. See my numbers earlier in this thread.
Assuming a low tuition rate of $4,000/child with six children (well below average) that is $24,000 in tuition in after tax money alone.
4000/per child? Way off. Perhaps in MO schools; in Chareidi schools even working parents with 6 children dont pay 4000/child.
Missme, my sister lives in Lakewood and pays $4800/child. I wish MO schools were $4,000 – try $15,000!
If they pay less, its because they get tuition breaks, which is another form of charity.
SJS: How many children does she have? If she has 6 (as in your original example), I can’t imagine she is paying 4000/child.
In any event, there are certainly choices of schools for less than 4000/child even for one or two children.
She has 3. Remember, that’s almost $15,000 in AFTER TAX money.If you make $45,000/year, that’s 1/3 of your pre-tax salary.
3 in school shes paying tuition for at 4800 each?
Even if so, she has less expensive choices.
At 6 IY”H, she will certainly be paying less PER CHILD.
How much does the least expensive school cost? (without tuition breaks)
She is paying 4800 X 3 currently, or 4800 for one of them while some are not in school yet?
She should certainly be able to find schools closer to 4000/year even without a volume discount. And a volume discount is standard fare even for working parents — not a charitable situation.
Lets assume the cheapest school is $3,000/child. At 6 kids that’s still $18,000. Unless you take a break – which is another form of charity.
2 in full school on in preschool. I don’t know what preschool costs.
A break in tuition (for anyone) IS a form of charity. Who do you think pays the difference in cost to run the school vs what someone is paying? Either donors or the other parents in the school.
The incremental costs are less. Retailers also offer volume discounts. Volume discounts, whether from a retailer or school, is in no way shape or form charity. The fact that it is often automatic, including for working parents, clearly demonstrates this fact.
I haven’t heard of automatic discounts for tuition. What schools offer this?
Places like Costco offer bulk discounts because they get a reduced rate from the manufacturer for guaranteeing larger sales.
With schools, The cost of tuition is calculated using the average cost per student. Its not incremenetal – its average out over the student body.
And it still doesn’t prove its charitable. It just proves that some schools automatically assume parents can’t afford tuition above a certain amount.
sjs, if you can’t live with taking charity, then that’s your own personal opinion, which you are %100 entitled to, and no one can change your mind. but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to live a kollel life for everyone else. (and by the way, for you {and others who feel the same way} , accepting charity would be considered a form of mesirus nefesh for living a kollel life)
In chasidish schools standard tuition is often about 2000 per child.
…mine and the Rambam’s.
OK, this has been fun. I’m off to sleep!
My husband was in kolel for three years. We didn’t recieve any support and I was the one bringing in the income. We could’ve done this another two years but my husband had pressure to go into the family business.
Now after a few more kids b”H, I don’t see how we would make it if my husband would be in kollel.
But the truth is middle income people barely make it and it might just be easier if my husband would have been in kollel and we got food stamps, medicaid and section eight, because the taxes are outrages. Also these low income people get HUGE tax returns.
I actually encouraged my freind not to take on a higher paying job because she would barely be able to live if she would lose her benefits.
I don’t consider it taking charity because the government literally steals the money from middle income people. Between the crazy property taxes, income taxes, taxes on investments that also have expenses so you actually end up LOSING money, forget it.
I used to be upset at the people who took MOFES but today my outlook has changed. The government takes huge chuncks off the middle income people and is chocking us, so I say if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em. Get your MOFES if you LEGALY of course, could.
In chasidish schools standard tuition is often about 2000 per child.
Not where I live.
Where I live the average is $3,500 to $4,000 per child.
What is “MOFES”?
Is it 3500 – 4000 PER child for someone with 6 tuition aged children? What part of the US do you live? (I assume you are in the US.)
It may be less expensive in Brooklyn.
philosopher,
One reason taxes on the middle class are high is because of Medicaid and Food Stamps, which as commenters here point out makes kollel living possible! And taxes aren’t theft; the government (really, us, since we elect the government) has the right to levy taxes and we are chayev to pay them.
SJS,
The MO high school in my community is $28K/year. And it has to turn away students because of lack of space despite a recent addition to the building.
What is “MOFES”?
MOFES is the unMOFES that will put America in der erd, but it’s still a mofes for those who get it till Americas gets there.
MOFES is medicaid, food stamps and section eight.
$28K a year, so a family with 4 or 6 children in the school WILL pay $112,000 or $168,000 tuition per year? I frankly don’t believe that.
What does Mofes stand for (abbreviation)?
charliehall, taxes become theft when the government takes more than one can afford to give for people benefits that people should not be getting.
Sorry illegals should not be getting benefits. And since so many illegals are having kids that are on benefits and in public schools and were paying for them, the government needs to fix that. Now while their paying for MILLIONS of these people, those few thousand frum peple should benefit from this as well.
Sooner or later this socialist system will collapse anyway.
Is it 3500 – 4000 PER child for someone with 6 tuition aged children?
Approximately that amount of kids b”H. Figure one more or one less. (I’m trying to stay anonymous, LOL.)
charliehall, foodstamps would be there even if kollel families didn’t take from it- how many kollel families are there in percentage to the rest of the low-income families in the US? and of course one should only get foodstamps if they are legally eligible.
missme, learning Torah on someone else’s “plaitzes” shoulders is a luxury.
Limud Torah is a basic necessity for a Jewish family like water is for a fish; it is not a luxury. A wife who willingly sacrificies luxuries so her family can be steeped in Torah and her husband concentrated in learning, is worthy of the highest praise.
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