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there are more and more girls looking for a frum “learner/earner” boy, does anyone know shadchanim who know this type?- cause most of the time they know learning boys- it seems like so many boys don’t have a plan on how they’re going to support a family, they’re hoping to learn until they NEED to work, but they don’t relize it’s not that easy to start working at 30!
BS”D
When the present economic situation improves, I think and hope that this will be the standard for most bochurim – a period, say a year or two, of full time learning after marriage, followed by part time learning upon entering the workforce.
Now I am not sure but I don’t think there are enough jobs out there for people who want to leave kollel and enter the workforce, at least in the US.
600kilo, I think people don’t realize how much lifetime learning a boy can get if he starts working part time, maybe even before marriage. The couple may be able to keep going much longer, and I think it’s something we have to present as a viable, respectable option.
The farther away, time wise, from seminary a girl gets the more she moves away from wanting a long term learner and prefers a earner learner or a man with a job who is koveah itim. The sad part is when these girls get married very quickly after seminary before they had a chance to differentiate between what they were told to want and what they actually want and they are stuck with their premature decision.
There are also a lot of guys who are learning but would rather be working too. It is just to difficult for most to make the move. There is pressure from parents, friends and society. Guys should build the courage to be able to make the break and get an education.
azi: i agree with you! (whilst (argh can never spell what i want to say!) i am training to become an emt i am being pressured to learn full time)
We should not be forcing our children to become leeches off of their parents. Especially in the present economic downturn, parents cannot afford to support all their children in kollel (or who married kollel boys) even if they wanted to! Many boys schools do not even give their students a high school degree, and are told their entire elementary and high school years to “become a kollel youngerman. there is no need to learn more then the basic math or english classes….” and we are expecting our boys to get a real degree? they cant write a complete sentence!
Most normal yeshivas do allow college. Most yeshivas do not, however. Encourage learning, but don’t ostracize those who aren’t cut out for it. Yeshivas can do without the “tzevuim” who are there due to pressure. Allowing those who want to leave to do so will result in the earners being more sincere in their Yiddisheit, and the learners to be able to achieve more without being brought down by those who don’t want to be there. “Many tried like tana debei Rabbi Yeshamel and were successful, and many tried like Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai and were not…”
ames: yeah i always laugh about the people that the yeshivos at times honor at dinners!
we shouldnt be discoraging learning f/t. many girls are looking for learner earner but majority are still looking for s/o in kollel.Many yeshivos dont allow the boys to go to college and the boys dont want to because it creates embaressment for them. the parents are the ones encoraging it, usually what happens are the boys who cant learn full time remain in yeshivos and hang around while the good boys end up going to get jobs.
ames- so true!
why do parents have to push their children into what they are not cut out to do? I know a family from way back. Their son was not cut out to learn f/t. He’s very skilled with his hands and wanted to learn a trade, like carpentry or something. It wasnt that he wasnt smart or anything-he just knew where his strengths lay. His parents forced him to stay in yeshiva and wouldnt hear otherwise. The boy, R”L is now off the derech.
I am not saying that this can happen to anyone but that if parents push their children one way or the other and the kids are not cut out for it- it wont be good. sometimes the parents dont know best, I am very sorry to say.
Whoa! this is a controversial one! Unfortunately society itself, in other words, we have created the situation we face ourselves with.
If a boy is in learning in one circle – brilliant
If a boy is working/studying in anther circle – he is admired
In one country if a boy leaves yeshiva – it’s bad news – oh man! bad news!
And elsewhere the same boy will be looked at as responsible.
Sems also seem to put a focus on marrying a guy who will stay in learning which doesn’t help.
We all need to stop pretending that we don’t care what the boy does as long as he is a decent mench. Rubbish! we do care. We all want to say “My son/son-in-law…..”
Take a long hard look at what we are doing to the future generation of men and be honest. Not every one can learn. The least we can do is to put them into an environment where they can work or study and maintain some level of learning like a daily shiur or programme where they will develop into hard working guys with a yeshivish attitude to their way of life.
Further more we need to stop the culture of parents working until they are put into their graves to supprt their kids. Married children must realise that it is fine to learn as long as you can put bread on the table and shoes on the feet of your kids. When you can’t – you go earn a living. It is surely more Kibud Ov V’aim to earn a living than to make your parents work well past their retirement ages.
Of course they are exceptions to every rule but as a general this is how I believe.
End of rant!!
Most unlike me!!
BS”D
Tzippi, yes, that is another very viable solution. What I proposed still allows for the shana rishona plus no more than another year to be spent in full time learning. Both could work and both are definitely solutions to the overemphasis on kollel that may no longer be viable.
600kilo, that is a pretty good idea. It stills allows the kollel route without putting a strain on parents. The wife can generally support a family on her salary when its just her and her husband. Even if she has a child right away, the costs are not all that expensive if you are careful.
I would prefer to at least see a 50/50 split between learning half the day and then getting training/degree the other half. That would allow the man a money earning career after his stint in kollel.
“Further more we need to stop the culture of parents working until they are put into their graves to supprt their kids. Married children must realise that it is fine to learn as long as you can put bread on the table and shoes on the feet of your kids. When you can’t – you go earn a living. It is surely more Kibud Ov V’aim to earn a living than to make your parents work well past their retirement ages.”
I wanted to see that repeated, it was so on the mark. Those same kids who are benefitting from daddy’s financial support, will be unable to offer it to their own kids, if they do not get educated and make a parnassah. What is next — GRANDparents providing the shana rishona, sheinis, shlishis parnassah??????? Who will raise the next generation – the babysitters, not the mothers, from THIS generation? Is that really what Hashem wants? Because if that is true, then all the things I was taught all my life in Yeshivah about women’s tafkid being the holy task of mothering and raising the children of klal Yisroel, seem contradictory with this idea. It is important for men to understand that their primary responsibility it to fulfill the ratzon of Hashem by both learning AND earning their way in life to support their families. It behooves the Yeshivos to put an emphasis on the idea that one can and has a chiyuv to do BOTH. Imm ein kemach ein Torah. Our greatest Gedolim also had jobs.
If nobody learns for more than a year, where will the future gedolim of klal yisroel come from? You have created a system of am haaratzim. But if everyone learns, where will the future parnassha of klal yisroel come from? I think the correct solution is not to discourage learning but to stop demonizing working for a parnassah, and setting up moire Torah support systems for those who work, similar to the tiferes bochurim or Tiferes Bnei Torah programs. The other problem with demonizing those who work is the problem with our chinuch ystem today- if you’re not the top you’re a bum. Once you’re a bum, why not be a real bum? Onc those who work are an accepted part of klal yisroel, it’s a lot easier to keep them in the fold.
I know many of you won’t agree with me on this, but in my opinion the first criteria is if the guy is someone you respect or not.
That’s all I was looking for; someone who was kind and honest, someone I could respect.
If he wanted to learn full time and was willing to sacrifice for it then I was willing to put in extra hours to make it work. If he valued his learning but was not on the level to give up on gashmius (and he was open about that) and wanted to work, then I respect that also.
Of course the guy will be nice to you on a date, but you also have to look at how he treats others cuz that’s how he’ll be treating his wife a few years after they get married.
Did he block someones driveway when he came to pick you up?
Did he take up two parking spots?
Did he leave enough room for the person in front of him and behind him to leave?
Does he respect other drivers on the road?
Did he adequately tip the parking attendant/ taxi driver/ waitress and thank them?
When he talks about others (friends, teachers, relatives) is it in a positive way?
Believe it or not- when I was teaching and one kid would use inappropriate language to another kid- more often than not they said that they heard their father using those words to their mother.
I might have ended up marrying a type of person I never knew existed when I started dating, but he is always polite to everyone and he is a great role model for our kids.
what if something should C”V happen to the wife or her job during that kollel time? maybe the man should have at least some training before marriage so that if needed, he can start working earlier. Colleges, many times, allow you to stop and restart later- I am refering to getting some sort of undergrad schooling even if he does not finish. i am not saying that all men should get a law degree before marriage, but rather that they should have that BA so that they can get hired as an assistant, at least. one never knows what may happen in the future.
ames: Where do you think the “original” Lakewood Chevra ended up today? 🙁
Jothar: Take a look at a Kesef Mishna on Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10 (I believe). you thinking mirrors his, and he ends up “Ais La’asos” (similar to the writing of Torah Sh’Baal Peh) that one who will become a Gadol or someone who the Klal needs SHOULD take Tzedaka to continue learning.
Thank you ames for your opinion.
My first priority was to marry someone who I respect for who they are, what they stand for and what example they will be for the next generation. I pursued an advanced degree so that I would be able to support him long term if need be. I am proud that I was able to support him for a few years while he was learning just about full time and finishing off his Ph.D. After seeking advice from his Rosh Hayeshiva and being told that the kids are at the age where they will benefit more from being raised by a mother I left my full time job and he went and got one.
Although it did not come to this, I believe that I was ready to give up a gashmius lifestyle and live a kollel lifestyle for the sake of his learning if he was sincere about it.
But I do agree with you that if someone is not ready to live a genuine kollel lifestyle then they should not attempt to because of love or social pressure.
Ames, my cousin is having a problem now. Her father is a Rebbi and she wants someone who is learning or in kiruv. A lot of men don’t want to date her because her father is a Rebbi (AKA not rich). Sad, but true.
Ames, I disagree slightly on the lifestyle choice. Marriage is a lot of adaptation. You both have ways you want to go, and then ultimately the way you choose to go. Sometimes, that means changing a lifestyle for your spouse. An easier example might be moving to an out of town community far away from your family to be near your husband’s yeshiva. It might be hard on you, but for the right man, it would be worth it.
Granted, I agree that if you don’t want a Kollel lifestyle (or you don’t have parents/in-laws who can support you in the way you want), Kollel will become a drain on the family, cause unnecessary stress and either make the man leave Kollel, make the woman suffer or make the marriage suffer.
BS”D
Indeed, under any new and viable limited full time or expanded part time system, the future gedolim, dayanim, poskim, roshei yeshivas will be the only ones remaining in koilel until they and a position match each other.
Another alternative is the SEED type kollel where the koilel yungerleit teach and learn at the same time. Service in such a kollel, outside the city, should indeed be subsidized by the community for a certain number of years, depending on the individual avrech (and his teacher wife) and how they perform in that environment as well as how long they feel they can contribute in this manner.
This sounds like a good way to train mechanchim in particular – let them teach whatever they know to those who need to know the basics as they themselves learn more.
“Although it did not come to this, I believe that I was ready to give up a gashmius lifestyle and live a kollel lifestyle for the sake of his learning if he was sincere about it”
Many girls think along these lines, only to discover that when push comes to shove and reality sets in, there is a certain amount of gashmius that is necessary in order to live, i.e. food, a roof over your head, clothing, doctor bills, utilities,Yeshivah tuition, and so forth. Many girls believe the same thing you stated because they feel they OUGHT to believe that way, or they are not proper bnos Yisroel. But if certain basic necessities, not luxuries, of life are not affordable, that idealistic thinking flies out the window, often along with Sholom Bayis.
It is assur to discourage learning.
ames- isnt that how it was in Europe? only those who were seen as talmudic geniuses were supported by the community while they sat and learned. Some of those sitting in kollel are geniuses and should be supported. but there are some that are there for “peer pressure” reasons. everyone is moving to lakewood and learning in kollel so I want to too… ect. why must this be the case? let those who will become the next gedolei hador be supported, but is every Yakov, avraham and moishe going to be one?
No one should discourage learning. Neither should they discourage earning, because that, too is assur. One of the three things a man is mechuyav to do for his child is to teach him a trade. That, I believe, is in the Gemarah.
In Europe, kollel was for the yechidei segula. Everyone else left yeshiva to get a job. Kollel as it currently exists is a modern phenomenon, although there were many in the time of the gemara who learned full-time in poverty. The modrn kollel system thrived in Israel due to the socialistic tendencies of the government, and it thrived in America due to the tremendous wealth in the community. Both factors are changing. Lifetime kollel needs to be more limited. Goal-oriented kollel (learn for a few years in poverty, then get a job or a shteller) will be the wave of the future.
And how many people went to work and are now as poor as kollel guys because they got laid off? No guarantee one way or the other.
ames:
I have heard (may not be true) that the freezer rule is waived for Lakewood girls, since they are having such a hard time getting married.
Jothar: The point is to be in Kollel by choice, not because you have no other option, or you are pushed into it by your society. At least those who worked had their time of not being on Tzedaka, and Bezras Hashem will/are working to get back to work and may have some savings.
What is the “freezer rule?”
“but I believe I’ve heard several times, that if a guy learns during the time he isn’t working, it’s as if he was learning while he was working too. “
I also learned that. In fact, if he dedicates his working to the idea that he is fulfilling Hashem’s will and doing so in order to be able to afford to spend his free time in learning, he gets the learning s’char for every working minute. it’s like when you go to sleep at night and say to yourself that you want to have a good night’s sleep so that the next day you will be able to be mekayeim more mitzvos, then every minute of sleep becomes a mitzvah in itself becuase of its purpose.
with a sn like that… you ask about the freezer rule?
Freezer Rule-
For bochurim coming for “summer zman” (after pesach) – can’t date until after Tisha B’av.
For bochurim coming for “winter zman” (after succos) – can’t date until after Tu B’shvat.
For bochurim coming for “Elul zman” – only bochurim with connections are accepted and the Freezer Rule is waived for those.
Be sure to reserve a rental car months in advance.
Supposedly a bochur entering yeshiva may continue dating a girl he is currently going out with. He must write her name in an envelope and give it to the yeshiva. If he gets engaged they open the envelope to make sure it is the same girl. (Or else?) He also has the right to ask for the envelope back to destroy if need be.
OOPS-
Wikipedia says that the Freezer is over on Shiva Assar B’tamuz for those entering after Pesach.
Sorry for the confusion.
To Jothar (and anyone else interested): check out R’ Yonason Rosenblum’s article, “Chemotherapy as Metaphor.” You can find it on his and R. Yakov Horowitz’s websites.
oomis1105: “but I believe I’ve heard several times, that if a guy learns during the time he isn’t working, it’s as if he was learning while he was working too. “
Its a Rosh in BB, that he holds its the correct method.
gavra, it’s a big if. Since leaving yeshiva for the workplace I haven’t been learning nearly as much as I should. I’m not saying it applies to everybody, but it applies to me.
Jothar: Of course. That’s why its valued OVER Kollel as per the Rosh I quoted.
“Supposedly a bochur entering yeshiva may continue dating a girl he is currently going out with. He must write her name in an envelope and give it to the yeshiva. If he gets engaged they open the envelope to make sure it is the same girl. (Or else?) He also has the right to ask for the envelope back to destroy if need be.”
Is this really true??????????
Check out Wikipedia- (under “Beth Medrash Govoha”)
“An exception to the non-dating rule is that the student may continue to date a girl, if he started seeing her before the semester started.”
It also explains the “or else”-
“If a student is found to have broken the rule, the senior faculty will generally not attend the wedding (which is considered an honor), and there may be other disciplinary consequences, such as the suspension of student from Yeshiva indefinitely.”
oh my. so if you are dating someone else then get engaged AFTER the freezer rule is up. is this only for the first year or what?
good old wiki….remember that you cant always trust wiki- anyone can post something on there and it isnt always correct…
Was just thinking – hopefully to benefit others – bringing it back to original poster for this topic – does anyone know shadchanim who know this learner/earner type boy?
seichel, the freezer policy is only the first couple of months from the beginning of the first zman the boy is there. After that, he can date all he wants.
This is for the first zman that a bochur is in the yeshiva.
Just out of curiosity- why would someone post something on the Internet that isn’t correct? 🙂
I always thought it would be a good idea for a new BMG bochur to write “Chani Schwartz” on the paper in the envelope. That way, he could go out with a dozen girls legally before the freezer opens 😉
havesomeseichel – Are you sure that Wikipedia cannot be relied upon as the ultimate source? Oy, everything I learned might be a lie! Why didn’t snopes warn me about this??
Dr. Pepper, so all the naiive people can believe them.
squeak: i heard of a story that a bochur put the initials of a girl in the envelope and only later was it found out that he had gone out with more than one girl (i don’t know if this is actually true but so said my baal habayis over the shabbos table)
i know a guy who not only began dating while in the freezer, he also got married in while in the freezer.
Also, many people are only in Lakewood until they get married because they plan to go to Israel or some smaller kollel. Those people have nothing to lose and should date anyway.
And now my thoughts: There are several instances where we find that the halacha makes an exception for the marriage of a bachelor. For example a wedding on chal hamoed can’t take place unless the chosson was never married (without children). But some people in Lakewood, NJ decided that its not a big deal to prevent hundreds of bachelors from marring for several months! Pretty dangerous stuff. My rebbi zt’l in Israel was very much against it. There is even a great story about a conversation he had with R’ Malkiel about it.
azi: are you sure that the freezer klal applies to “elter bochurim”?
An alter bocher is anyone over 18.
in lakewood!?!? (unless you are chassideshe… are you chassideshe azi? or is this coming from the age gap in shidduchim thread?)
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