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Why does laundry detergent need an OU, or any hechsher for that matter?
Because in the past animal fats (e.g. lard, fat derived from pigs) was used in making soaps and detergents. Many people do not like the idea of washing their clothes or eating on a table cloth that may have been washed with treff soap. Therefore many kosher consumers want laundry detergent to have a hecksher (and overall, many consumer was soaps that do include dead animal parts in them). Since the consumers want detergent with a hecksher, the companies that give hecksherim meet the demand.
In case swallowed.
Have you seen any with a Hashgocha?
If so, what brand?
Which Hashgocha?
Can you get an extra sticker on it?
I am unaware of any commercially produced detergent available in the US today that is made from animal products.
The following is a small part of an article found on the website of the COR titled “Does it really need to be kosher certified”.
It needs it because it encourages ammei aratzot to buy it rather than a competing brand. In the same vein, I once saw a bag of freezer bags that was labelled “glatt” (the bags were indeed smooth.
I agree with APY.
I didnt say anything to be agreed or disagreed with. I quoted from the COR website.
charliehall: It is irrelevant in at present all laundry detergents are made with non-animal ingredients, since in the past they clearly were. Therefore many kosher consumers prefer products with a hecksher. And she this is a capitalist system, the manufacturers and kashruth agencies meet the consumer’s demand.
One can often rely on assuming a product uses the common ingredients and you will usually be right, but for many kosher consumers “usually” isn’t good enough, and they want “always”.
If you look around the “web” many people, not just us, are concerned about animal products in non-food items used for cleaning, since the traditional way soap and detergents were made involved animal fats.
I agreed that what you quoted was a small part of an article found on the website of the COR titled “Does it really need to be kosher certified”.
Akuperma, do they also eschew pigskin and alligator skin belts (not to mention footballs, which are evn called pigskins)) and alligator shoes?
Charlie,
“I am unaware “
That is not an answer (factual as it may be). I suspect that there may be other items you are unaware of as well. That you are unaware is even less an indication of actual status than anecdotal data.
Avik,
“Akuperma, do they also eschew pigskin and alligator skin belts (not to mention footballs, which are evn called pigskins)) and alligator shoes?”
It would be a problem if they would chew, not eschew.
Footballs, although called pigskins are not made from pigskins.
Anyway, none of the items you mentioned never come into contact with food so its a moot issue. However soap products are used on tablecloths and to wash utensils, and it is not clear that they would ever have been considered “nifsal” so your comparison is just uninformed silliness.
The OP has asked a question about clothing detergent and hashgocha and there are number of responses that seem to assume that there is even such a thing.
I asked for just one example and no one has responded. Not that means there aren’t, however, why would there be responses assuming there is such a thing when no examples have been provided.
“I asked for just one example and no one has responded.”
go to www dot oukosher dot org / product-search and in the search box type “laundry detergent” you will get a rather long list of laundry detergents that are ou certified. hope this answers your question. Go to soap dot com and pull up arm and hammer powder laundry detergent. the OU is clearly visible on the packaging.
“I asked for just one example and no one has responded. Not that means there aren’t, however, why would there be responses assuming there is such a thing when no examples have been provided. “
im not sure if you are being serous or joking. there are many brands with heschshers on them. I am almost sure tide is one of them. I can check and get back to you but you could probably check yourself next time you go shopping (unless that’s a women’s job :P)
nisht: I don’t check but I have seen detergents with a Badatz in Israel. Also, even if soap comes into contact with a tablecloth which comes into contact with food, who cares? There will be no Blios or even a Chiyuv of Hadacha from that contact.
The fallacy of this thread is the assumption that just because something has a Hechsher means that someone thinks it needs a Hechsher.
I am being Serous. Even when I don’t shop, I do often bring in the shopping. However I’ve never looked for, nor noticed a hasgocha.
I know someone who works in kashrus and I will ask.
Nishtdayngesheft, what self-respecting dog would eat laundry detergent? BTW, laundry detergent is not used to clean dishes. For that there are dish cleaning liquids. If you read the label you will see that they are definitely not for internal use (after they are used the dishes are washed and dried) so they should have the same din.
One could argue that laundry soap doesn’t need a hecksher. One can also argue that men’s jackets don’t need vents (the double vent is to accomodate your pistol and sword, the single vent is to accomodate riding a horse). But it appears that most kosher consumer demand hecksherim (just like most men demand vents on their suit jackets regardless of whether they are riding horses or carrying swords). And in all fairness, based on the number of non-Jewish consumers also concerned about what is in products (GMO, Organic, Natural, etc.), it appears that many consumer are overly strictly about the goods they use. — And those in the business of selling stuff are quite willing to accomodate customers.
Avik,
If you would have followed even your part of the conversation, you would have seen that it was referring to how soaps, including laundry detergents used to be made. And there was no real difference in the soaps then, they were used as both laundry and other detergents.
And I am pretty sure the olden day soaps were items that dogs could and would eat, self respecting or not.
Akuperma was saying that people may want a hashgocha because of what traditionally soaps were made of.
And I’m saying that even if that’s true it shouldn’t matter, because there will be no way for there to be Blios in your food.
I’ve never got a good answer to why there are so many laundry detergents but so few hand soaps with a hechsher.
” It is irrelevant in at present all laundry detergents are made with non-animal ingredients, since in the past they clearly were.”
Wrong. The fact that no milk products from any animal other than cows, goats, or sheep may be transported across state lines for commercial allows us to consume such dairy products in the US.
I don’t care whether laundry detergent has a hechsher or not because I never eat or drink laundry detergent.
Prof. Bernard Lewis found from Ottoman tax records that showed that Jews in Palestine were producing soap from vegetable oil in the 16th century.
I asked someone who works in Kashrus and he said that the agency never says that there is a reason for hashgocha but there are manufacturers who want it.
If I had to venture, perhaps they just like to see the symbol across all their products or that they use it to certify to certain users that it does not contain animal products.
“Wrong. The fact that no milk products from any animal other than cows, goats, or sheep may be transported across state lines for commercial allows us to consume such dairy products in the US. “
Actual, Charli, you are wrong.
Is there a law preventing making laundry detergent out of edible non kosher products?
The only reason there is a heter for milk is because it is against the law to sell other items as milk (Well read the cRc’s recent information about a new law)and that the government checks up on the milk.
That is not the case at all with detergent.
You are way off base on that theory.
I can see a manufacturer wanting a hechsher on the detergent to give the allusion that it is a “safe” product. I mean how poisonous can something be if it has an O-U?
A quick Google search indicates that there are detergents that call themselves natural that have ingredients that can come from non kosher sources and there is nothing about these that would seem they are not edible for a dog. They do say they are non-toxic. I am not sure what the halacha would be if a table cloth or towel was washed with a detergent made with real tarfus or chelev and hot food fell on the table cloth or was touched by the towel (Neither an uncommon occurrence). Perhaps people would be concerned even if there was no real problem. I guess it depends on how much remains after a rinse.
There are also many sites where people express their interest in making sure their products, including detergents, are free of animal products.
Seems to me a reason why a detergent manufacturer would want a kosher certification, even though from a kashrus perspective there is no reason to need one.
The following is what I recall being told by my mother, A”H.
Until the 1940’s, everybody washed their dishes with soap. Jews used “kosher soap,” which I think is still available (in two colors, red and blue) and is made of coconut oil or something like that. Then Tide came out. It was intended for laundry use, but since it wasn’t made of animal fat like regular soaps, Jews used it to wash dishes.
To all those who seem to think that soap can be eaten by dogs- “ro’ui leachilas kelev”- let me categorically deny that. All soaps use an emulsifier -once upon time animal fats- and LYE. the lye makes the soap effective but also makes it absolutely impossible to eat by anyone-human or animal. Where do you think the expression “wash out your mouth with soap’ comes from? Because it is absolutely inedible.
ROB,
Thank you for incorrect information.
The fallacy of this thread is the assumption that just because something has a Hechsher means that someone thinks it needs a Hechsher.
Yes. Similar to the fallacy in the sunglasses thread.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sunglasses-assur
Ever since I watched a dog eat cigarette butts, I’ve questioned the idea that there’s anything that a dog won’t eat.
As Nisht points out, ROB’s information is erroneous. Yes, soap is made from lye and fat. Fat is not an emulsifier. Although lye is highly caustic and highly basic, soap isn’t. Soap tastes bad, as anyone who has accidentally got some in his mouth can testify, but there are many foods that taste bad. If you don’t believe me, google worst tasting foods.
Years ago, I was approached by a black man in Muslim garb, presumably a recent convert, in a supermarket. He wanted to know what I, as a Jew, do about soap. I explained that halacha doesn’t care about what we wash our bodies with, just what we eat. I don’t know if it’s normative Sharia to require non-pork soap for washing. Consult your local imam, I suppose.
yehudayona: To quote R’ Soloveitchik (referring to toothpaste), “Do you think dogs know the Halachah? Your dog is a Shoteh!”
The dog eating cigarette butts was not eating them as food but as a drug.
I explained that halacha doesn’t care about what we wash our bodies with
That’s not an absolute.
Yehudayona, once Rav Moshe paskened that something was not considered chametz because a dog would not eat it. Someone threw a piece to his dog which proceeded to eat it. Rav Moshe said “Crazy dog”. Rav Soloveichik once was confronted by a similar situation and asked whom his interlocutor would believe, the dog or him.
However, it is obviously correct that the hechshers are given because they enhance competitiveness. Similarly, hechshers regarding treatment of employees are not generally given (although there is an organization in Israel that has tried this) as they do not enhance competitiveness.
DY, thanks for the correction. According to most authorities, we can use regular soap for washing our bodies despite the fact that it’s made from treif animal fat, but there are those who are machmir.
link removed, can be googled though
Back to my citation from the COR. For many companies the kashrus symbol is a marketing tool indicating quality, not kashrus! Dont know where their statistics come from, but that say only 15% of people who look for a hechsher do so because they are jewish and care about kashrus!
nisht and yehuda : where is my information incorrect? You confirm that soap is made with lye ,which makes it inherently inedible, you agree that it tastes bad and you still say that it is “rou-i le’achilas kelev”? Sorry, I don’t get it. Food that tastes bad is inedible for humans. The allusion to dogs is because they would eat certain food that is not edible to humans yet they eat it. But this doesn’t mean all bad food can be given to dogs. Just try to feed a dog soap…we’ll see how far that goes with the dog!!
“Food that tastes bad is inedible for humans.”
I personally hate pizza, does this mean it is inedible for humans? surely halacha has other guidelines other than taste to determine what is considered achilas kelev. And if they started making soap that tasted like delicious chicken soup would it suddenly become a “food”?
ROB, you imply that anything made with lye is inedible. if you take lye (sodium hydroxide) and hydrochloric acid, both of which are inedible, and mix them together, you get sodium chloride, which is clearly edible.
There’s a difference between inedible and unpalatable. Google “worst tasting foods.” Google “people who eat soap.” And animal fat is still not an emulsifier.
I googled “dog ate soap.” The first result was on a vet’s website in which she said “I have seen a number of dogs that really like eating soap. I have no idea why!” QED.
apushatyid: Of course taste is the main ingredient how to grade food. What else do you think they had two thousand years ago? Electronic microscopes? Come on, we should have a modicum of sense here. “Nossen taam” appears in a multitude of halochos so ,yes, taste is the standard that we use. The prohibition of certain foods is based exclusively on how and whether they taste in a certain way. The question of “rou’i leachilas kelev” is the lowest common denominator that we find in halocho concerning the edibility of food. Soap is not a food nor is it edible to humans and dogs. You may find individual dogs (or people for that matter)who relish it. It does not make it “rou’i leachilas kelev”.
yehudaona: Emulsifier may have been my mistake. It is “saponification” that I meant. (kudos to google for the explanation) And, indeed, if the actual subject is changed chemically, maybe it would become edible and would change its halachic definition. For now, soap is still not a food and tastes terrible.
ROB. Now you are talking nonesense. So, lemon fresh pledge is a food if it tastes good? I’m sure the Jamestown kool aid also tasted good.
We are not grading food. We are talking about classifying something as food. Soap, no matter how good it may or may not taste, is not food. Neither is bubble gum flavored rat poison. On the other hand, horrible tasting chicken soup, or in my case pizza (I cant stand it) is food.
apushatayid: you seem to agree with me that soap is not a food. So, I don’t know what you are arguing about. As far food (like chicken soup or pizza)indeed ,if it is totally spoiled- and this why it tastes horrible- then yes, it would be “wino rou’i leachilas kelev’ and would be exempted from an issur. You keep on mentioning your dislike of pizza- but 99% of the world likes it so, “bemechilas kvod toroscho- your opinion has no validity on the general aspect of pizza.
I think we’re all in agreement that soap is not a food. “Not a food” isn’t equivalent to “absolutely impossible to eat by anyone-human or animal.”
Getting back to the original question, there seem to be a number of answers:
1. Way back when, some Jews used laundry detergent for washing dishes because there was no such thing as dish detergent.
2. Some people hold that there’s a problem with using treif laundry products on tablecloths, dish towels, and napkins.
3. Some people regard hashgachas as symbols of quality or purity.
4. The kashrus agencies are willing to accept a fee even if they hold the product doesn’t need hashgacha.
The point isn’t whether a produce needs a hecksher, it is whether enough consumers believe it needs a hecksher, which determines whether any manufacturers determine that paying for a hecksher will produce enough marginal revenue to justify the cost of the hecksher.
This has nothing to do with halacha, or even politics, but is totally a matter of economics — at least in a capitalist system where consumers are free to choose which products they consume, and manufacturers decide what to produce in order maximize profits.
A similar debate is occuring among the goyim over natural, organic and non-GMO foods. While there are no scientific or health reasons to prefer such foods, some consumer prefer them, and some manfacturers provide them.
In a socialist system, the government would decide what you consume and how much, and how it should be made and by whom. But we are in a market economy based on consumer preferences. Live with it (and enjoy – you really don’t want a command economy).
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