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In short, before specifically pointing out that the merchandise in one place is more expensive than in another place, you would probably have to: 1. know that that matters to this person. 2. point out all the maalos of the more expensive place (and that would be assur in a public place since you are putting down the other place and it may not be l’toeles for everyone reading it).
Bottom Line: There are many factors and conditions. Ask a sheilah.
“My issue had nothing to do with feminism.”
I know you didn’t. I wasn’t talking about you. In terms of your point, I hear your point, but I did feel I had enough information and there were reasons I felt it had to be phrased that way in that particular case. I don’t want to try to explain anymore, and it’s not relevant anymore.
We are talking about COMPARING two places and making a point of telling someone that one is more expensive than the other.
I am talking about an objective comparison of what two or more stores charge for the exact same product or products.
“My issue had nothing to do with feminism.”
I also wanted to thank you for the fact that you have never let any debates I’ve had with you go in that direction. There have been times (not too many, BH) when I had to back away from arguments with people in the CR because they were bringing the discussion in that direction and it would have been impossible to continue the argument without going somewhere I didn’t want to go.
I was very upset that that discussion ended up going that way and I ended up having to discuss things I didn’t want to discuss.
And I very much appreciate the fact that you have never let any discussions I’ve had with you go in that direction. Thank you.
I was in the middle of responding but my posts hadn’t been moderated yet (or completed – I am trying to split things up so they shouldn’t be too long)
Is Gourmet Glatt allowed to post their prices online? Since undoubtedly there are people who know Seasons’ prices on specific items, Gourmet Glatt posting a lower price should, according to you, constitute lashon hora.
(For example only. I’m sure each store has lower prices on different items at different times.)
I didn’t realize that we were talking about the same exact same product. Iacisrmma hadn’t mentioned that, and this conversation was about his comment.
In any case, there can be many differences between the 2 stores aside from the product itself. So you still have the same problem I stated above.
Lilmod: “We are talking about COMPARING two places and making a point of telling someone that one is more expensive than the other.”
DY: I am talking about an objective comparison of what two or more stores charge for the exact same product or products.”
DY: “Is Gourmet Glatt allowed to post there prices online? Since undoubtedly there are people who know Seasons’ prices on specific items, Gourmet Glatt posting a lower price should, according to you, constitute lashon hora.”
You did not read what I wrote carefully. I said that we are talking about making a point of comparing the prices. Gourmet Glatt can post their prices online. They can not make a point of posting Season’s prices and comparing it to their own.
“For example only. I’m sure each store has lower prices on different items at different times.)”
Shkoyach! I realized it was an example, but I wasn’t sure if I should have responded using the same example. It’s probably better to use fake names (even if you make it clear that it’s an example, it can still leave an impression in people’s minds).
Iacisrmma hadn’t mentioned that
Yes, he had. As had I.
There is nothing objective here.
You do realize that a store can change prices tomorrow. A new owner can buy the business in 5 years from now and can lower their costs on all items completely. Yet a quick Google search of the store will lead potential customers back to an old CR thread.
That in itself, now or in the future can label a store indefinitely. Do not discount the power of your voice DY! People can be swayed by your comparison. That’s why ordinary people get paid to write reviews.
This is what Iacisrmma wrote: “Am I not allowed to tell someone that store “x” sells item “a” cheaper then store “y”? ”
I understood that item a is a type of item but it can be made by different companies and have different level of quality. Let’s say that item a is milk. One store’s milk can be fresher than another’s. And by the way, this can be true even if they are from the same company. Someone just told me that certain companies sell fresher products to certain stores than others. There was some kind of business reason behind it. I think I remember what it was, but I can’t say because it might be l”h.
“For example only. I’m sure each store has lower prices on different items at different times.)”
Another good reason why it might be a problem. By saying that product A in store A is less expensive than product A in store B, you are discouraging people from going to store B, and meanwhile, maybe some of those people buy more of product B which is cheaper in store B, so now you caused store B to lose money for no reason.
Gourmet Glatt can post their prices online. They can not make a point of posting Season’s prices and comparing it to their own.
Lashon hora is assur even if the listener will figure out the negative implication from information they didn’t specifically hear from the speaker. So, if a price comparison were assur, so would stating one price be assur, because at least some of the listeners already know (or will find out) the other.
In fact, I frequently check the prices of my local stores against each other. That should be assur, and I shouldn’t be allowed to believe the higher price.
Put it this way: If you were selling something, would you like it if someone made a point of publicly posting that your product is more expensive than someone else’s?
Personally, I have a certain kind of business right now. I charge more for my product than many other people do.
But there are maalos to mine. In fact one of the maalos is the fact that it costs more money which can be a maaleh for reasons that I can’t explain right now.
When I am trying to convince people to buy my product, I often point out these things to them. If they would ask me why they should buy my product when they can get something similar for less money, I explain these things to them.
But I would be very upset if someone were to make a point of announcing to the world that I charge more than others do without saying anything else.
Anyhow, I’m going to sleep now!
Good night!
There are different types of l”h. One is giving over objectively negative information. The other is saying something that leads to a negative impression. If you say that Store A charges x for something, that is not l”h. If you compare the prices, you are putting one in a negative light.
The bottom line is that this is not a simple issue and it is definitely something that requires a sheilah – certainly more than what I wrote on the other thread.
You’d be right. But that’s not what we were discussing.
btw, I don’t know if you noticed posts #520 and #525 above. I just want to make sure you see them.
Good night one and all!
sure it is. What’s the difference?
520: no point in rehashing. I still disagree and encourage you to refrain in the future.
525: You’re welcome.
But there are maalos to mine.
🍿
lilmod: “Gourmet Glatt can post their prices online. They can not make a point of posting Season’s prices and comparing it to their own.”
DY: “Lashon hora is assur even if the listener will figure out the negative implication from information they didn’t specifically hear from the speaker. So, if a price comparison were assur, so would stating one price be assur, because at least some of the listeners already know (or will find out) the other.”
1. It’s not the same thing. First of all, there are different types of loshon hora. One of them is giving someone (negative) information they didn’t previously have. Another one is saying something in a negative way.
Stating that Shoprite charges 5$ for milk is not describing them in a negative way. If you say that Shoprite charges more for milk than Pathmark does, you have just described Shoprite in a negative fashion that may cause them to lose business, even if you didn’t give over any facts that the person didn’t already know.
2. some of the people you are speaking to may not have known that and it may not have been important enough to them to look into it (but once you tell them, they won’t shop there).
3. You are assuming that a) must be muttar because b) is muttar. Who says that b) is muttar? I happen to think the two cases are different as I wrote above and the fact that a) is assur doesn’t make b) assur, but if you think the two cases are the same, then maybe b) is also assur.
Example of pt #1 in above post: Let’s say I am trying to find out about a guy name Shmuely. I ask Dovid how smart he is. He tells me that he has an iq of 120. That is very different than if he would tell me that he is less intelligent than Reuven even if I already knew that Reuven’s iq is 130 so I could have figured it out myself.
By specifically pointing out that Shmuely’s iq is lower than Reuven’s, he has now made me think negatively of Shmuely and made me think I should go out with Reuven instead. (and just for the record, I have never asked for anyone’s iq – I was just trying to think of an objective fact that can be used to describe someone).
Another point that just occurred to me: If you make the point of saying that someone’s iq is less than someone else’s, you are implying that the difference is significant. If the price of milk in one place is $1.50 and in another place is $1.55 and you say that in place B it is more expensive than it is in place A, it is not simply an objective statement – you have now made it sound like the difference is significant. (and it actually may be irrelevant compared to the extra money you have to spend on gas to get to A).
and there may be maalos to shopping in the other store – but you are only pointing out the negative aspect.
LB also has a good point about the fact that prices can change. Even if you are not comparing and simply mentioning how much something costs in one store, I wonder if you would be allowed to do that without asking the store first. They may lower the price tomorrow and meanwhile it is written here for all eternity. (on their own website, they can change it).
I looked in the Chofetz Chaim and he says that you are not necessarily allowed to tell someone who is planning to purchase an item in a particular store that the store overcharges. Overcharging is defined halachically as charging a certain amount more than the norm. If that is not necessarily allowed, it seems to me that one should not assume that it’s okay to tell someone that one store charges more than another, and a sheilah should be asked.
Any information which is muttar to relate l’toeles is subject to change. You’ve just done away with the heter of toeles.
That’s what you seem to be trying to do here the whole time, actually.
Sure, you can make it assur by making the case that he said it in a negative way.
But again, that wasn’t the discussion. You added that in.
I looked in the Chofetz Chaim and he says that you are not necessarily allowed to tell someone who is planning to purchase an item in a particular store that the store overcharges.
Citation please.
Since you haven’t responded, I will assume you are referring to this:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15142&st=&pgnum=262&hilite=I will make the following observation – he is referring to this case:
אם הוא רואה שאחד רוצה להכנס לחנות לקנות סחורה אצל אחד
In this case specifically, he is causing a (somewhat) direct loss to the owner. This is not the case with a general discussion (online or otherwise).
Also, you wrote, Overcharging is defined halachically as charging a certain amount more than the norm. .
That’s not the case he is referring to, though, when he says it’s אסור. In a case where there is a violation of אונאה, it would be permitted (actually, a mitzvah) to tell, even where the buyer is ready to walk into the store.
He is referring to a case where there is not a (definite) violation of אונאה.
I have answers to everything you wrote, but first I have a question:
Are you trying to argue that this case isn’t loshon hora at all or are you arguing that it is loshon hora but it’s allowed l’toeles and this would be considered l’toeles?
I
The point is that when you post something online it stays there forever. That is why it may have a different din.
I’m not sure why you replied to an earlier post…
Are you trying to argue that this case isn’t loshon hora at all or are you arguing that it is loshon hora but it’s allowed l’toeles and this would be considered l’toeles?
That depends which case you’re talking about. If someone would do a direct price comparison in a case where neither store is violating halacha, I don’t think it’s l”h to begin with. If the higher price is a violation of halacha, it is muttar l’toeles.
The point is that when you post something online it stays there forever. That is why it may have a different din.
That should not matter, since it’s clear that the information is from some time ago and may have changed.
The reason online discussion can be worse is because if inherently bad information is posted, there may be people reading it for whom it may not be l’toeles. The question would be if the fact that so many more people will be warned is itself a toeles.
Also, subjective reviews are a bigger problem, because you don’t really know the tastes of the reviewer and whether it applies to you.
Reading negative reviews is a further problem, because you often don’t know that the information is even being given honestly.
“I’m not sure why you replied to an earlier post…”
because it was posted after the last time I posted.
There were several posts that came after the last time I posted and I intend to respond to all, bli neder, but that was the only I had a chance to respond to yet.
My point was that saying that A is more expensive than B reflects negatively on A.
I didn’t add anything in. You’re not reading what I wrote.
You’re not reading what I wrote.
It would be easier to read if you wouldn’t post it in the middle of the thread…
You wrote above that your product being more expensive is actually a ma’aleh. Now you’re saying that it necessarily reflects negatively?
There are many reasons, halachically and otherwise legitimate, why a price can be higher. It’s not inherently a negative.
It may very well change the buyer’s decision, but that’s both to his, and the lower priced store’s benefit. We don’t find the issur of causing hezek to the higher priced store except when it’s clear that the buyer would have likely purchased there – “שאחד רוצה להכנס לחנות לקנות סחורה”.
DY: “Any information which is muttar to relate l’toeles is subject to change. You’ve just done away with the heter of toeles.
That’s what you seem to be trying to do here the whole time, actually.”No, I’m not doing away with the heter of toeles.
Regarding toeles, my point was that:
1. The fact that there is a toeles doesn’t automatically make something muttar. There may be certain necessary conditions. For example, in some cases, something is only muttar l’toeles if the person specifically asked you or if you know it’s something important for them (that comes up in the halachos of l”h for shidduchim).
Therefore: 2. Even if you ask a sheilah and you are told that it is muttar to give the information to this specific person because whatever necessary conditions are in place, it is impossible that all of those conditions apply to every single person in the world so it would still be assur to post it online.
You had originally written this: “Why wouldn’t it be l’toeles for everyone reading it?”
You seemed to be saying that just like it could be muttar to tell one person, it could be muttar to tell the whole world online. And I was saying that that doesn’t follow.
DY: “Sure, you can make it assur by making the case that he said it in a negative way.
But again, that wasn’t the discussion. You added that in.”
My point was that saying that A is more expensive than B reflects negatively on A.
I didn’t add anything in. You’re not reading what I wrote.
(I wrote this above, but I was afraid you wouldn’t see it).
That is very different than if he would tell me that he is less intelligent than Reuven
and
announcing to the world that I charge more than others do
are examples of what I was referring to. As opposed to, “Shoprite charges $2.50 and Walmart charges $2”.
BTW, IQ is hardly a fair standard of intelligence.
You seemed to be saying that just like it could be muttar to tell one person, it could be muttar to tell the whole world online. And I was saying that that doesn’t follow.
Forget about whether it follows from your hypothetical, which I was not even talking about. Why isn’t it muttar? It is 1) not inherently negative 2) a piece of information useful for anyone making a purchasing decision. They can choose to save the money or consider other factors (distance, beauty of the store, etc.) as more important.
DY: “That is very different than if he would tell me that he is less intelligent than Reuven”
and
“announcing to the world that I charge more than others do”
are examples of what I was referring to. As opposed to, “Shoprite charges $2.50 and Walmart charges $2”.”I’m not sure what you mean by this? Are your saying that you think it’s okay to say: “Shmuely is less intelligent than Reuven” and to announce that I charge more? Or are you saying that’s not okay (or that’s not what you were talking about)?
Not okay unless l’toeles.
I had the same thoughts about Beitar. It might be worth looking into, but I was concerned that it might be too “right-wing” for you.
I view that comment as being in the same category as discussing prices.
I think it’s fine, but according to your approach on this thread, that statement would constitute lashon hora on a community.
There’s zero problem making a public announcement from the Bimah that Reuven charges $2 for apples while Shimon charges $3 for apples, assuming both prices are within halachicly accepted parameters? How’s announcing from the Bimah different than posting online?
Saying that Shoprite charges more for apples than Pathmark does is a negative statement.
Saying that a community may be too right-wing for a particular person is not a negative statement. (it’s true that one should be careful about those kinds of comments though in general. I generally do refrain from community comparisons, since often they can have negative connotations. I thought that the way it was phrased in the particular context was okay since it was clear that it wasn’t meant to reflect negatively on either the person or the community.)
say what? You are saying that a) is okay, so b) must be okay. Why are you assuming that a) is okay? I would say that a) is assur just like b) is assur.
Again, I would be upset if someone made a similar announcement about the product that I am selling without saying anything else about it.
DY, let me just refer you back to what this discussion is about. The discussion is about Iacirmma’s question as follows:
“Am I not allowed to tell someone that store “x” sells item “a” cheaper then store “y”? ”You recently wrote that your argument is that it’s inherently okay (not just l’toeles).
Now you are saying that you think that it’s only okay to announce that I charge more if it’s l’toeles.
So again, is your point that saying “store x sells item a cheaper than store Y” is okay because it’s inherently not loshon hora or is your point that it’s okay because it’s l’toeles? (or had you not realized that that is what the discussion was about and you were discussing a different type of statement?)
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