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Joseph, I agree that it’s a formula problem, but that doesn’t really matter. What matters to residents is that the spending will go down. Maybe they should lobby to get the formula changed, and then the attitude of people will change?
As far as infrastructure, it’s not just about electricity and plumbing. I have family in Monsey who complains about the traffic and lack of parking. The roads there weren’t designed to handle large amounts of traffic, or the parking demand. You also aren’t necessarily correct about facilities – I’ve been told that in Monsey, power outages due to storms are much more common than in other areas. This is because the infrastructure was put up extremely quickly. There aren’t always backup systems in place, and the wiring wasn’t necessarily put in as it should have been (i.e. above ground on poles instead of buried, as is commonly done with newer constructions).
“In a majority Yeshivish town (such as Lakewood, or Ramapo), the costs of an exponential birth rate should get paid by higher taxes on owners”
However, the additional funding would mostly be covered by the additional housing that is being taxed while not using the public school system. The incremental costs that are not for school costs are being covered by the increased tax base.
“The problem is that the Jews refuse to pay the taxes needed to support the services that are required by their exponential birth rate “
See response above. In addition a significant part of the costs are for ESL costs which are for students from families who pay neirther tuition or, for the most part real estate taxes either. As opposed to Jewish homeowners who are paying taxes and the number of new homes and expanded homes are bringing in ever increasing real estate taxes.
I know that real estate taxes in East Ramapo have increased much more than 7.5% over the last five years, and the overall school budget has increased by almost 30% over that time period (And that is much more that the entire transportation budget plus a goodly percentage of the entire special education budget, for public and non public schools). What has decreased is the state funding.
“Special ed services in public schools are significantly cheaper than in private schools.”
This is not factual (At least in East Ramapo) It is a claim that has been disproven time and again. The costs paid by the school board to the most well known of the “Jewish” special education schools in ER is actually significantly LESS that the costs of the teaching the children in the public schools. And the actual number of children placed in non public schools in East Ramapo is less than 100.
If they don’t want Jews because the Jews do things that are uniquely Jewish, that I would call anti-semitism.
If a group of people who own non-kosher restaurants, bakeries and such found out that orhtodox jews were moving to their area and they opposed it, Is this Anti-Semitism (This happend in the hamptons …Bakeries and restaurants did not want orhtodox jews moving into their area because they would not patronize their stores and they’d be out of business
Mandated School Busing in NJ which is free to both public and private school students who live more than 2 miles from their school and are in kinder garden through 8th grade or 2.5 miles for high school students and whose school is nonprofit and within 20 miles of their home. The district must provide the bus service or pay the parent or the service provider $884 per student per year. If the changes their starting time so that they start at 8 instead of 9. The co-ed busing is dead as the public school students would not be on the same bus as the yeshiva students. The centralized bus route will require numerous buses one could be for boy the other for girls. Boys will only go on boy buses and girls on girl buses. The sex will be determined by who gets on the bus first.
As far as Special Ed that two is mandated. These students require teachers that speak their language and know the culture. Monsey does have a program in the public school for them but it’s total separate from the rest of the school. Special Ed in the Monsey public school cost about $40,000 per student per year while private school cost $60,000- $75,000 and Lakewood placed some students that cost $140,000 per student per year. Private special ed. is only authorized if the parent appeals the school placement in a public school. This appeal is via the courts and as per federal regulation both sides legal fees are paid by the school board.
It is not the Jewish resident that are causing the problem. State law limits the amount a district can raise Property Taxes. It is actually the seniors who started limiting property tax increases.
It’s a state problem they have to provide school busing for ALL Mandated Students. If they can’t or don’t, NJ law states the State must pay $884 per mandated student per year, to the service provider as compensation.
As for special ed since this requires that the student understand the teacher it requires Yiddish or Hebrew speaking teachers. Likewise, they need to know the student’s culture which is not always available in the public school.
Special Ed does not nessasarily require instruction in the students language. In fact its almost impossible to do so in any language except English or Spanish as there are very few qualified special ed teachers in other languages It does not require culture either as there are plenty of cultures in the NYC area and its impossible for qualified teachers to know them all
Abba,are you saying that none of the special ed kids to speak English?
There are two types of special ed. One is for example for the child who has trouble pronouncing words or reading ,while he other is for someone developmentally disable. It is the developmental disable that cost between $40,000 in a public school to $140,000 in a private school.
Each and every special ed student is evaluated by the board of education and a plan is made as to how he or she is to be educated. If the parent agree then the child goes to public school. If the parent disagrees they get a lawyer and they must convince a judge that the public school is not in the best interest of the child. The easiest way of proofing this is that the public school doesn’t speak the child’s language.
As to the question do any of these special ed students understand English? The answer is probably yes but their lawyer shows in court, that they only speak Yiddish thereby requiring private placement. You must realize the lawyers take these cases on contingent. If they win they get paid by board of education if they lose the case they get nothing.
As to the claim that public school only have to teach in English and/or Spanish. A normal child who only speaks a foreign language and is not being taught in that language can and will be granted private placement otherwise you are just warehousing him not educating him.
I said you need a QUALIFIED teacher, not just someone who speaks a certain language. And the reality is its almost impossible to get qualified teachers in any language except english or spanish.
I said it before the NYC school system tried to get a qualified teacher in pashtun and could not find any and for the record going to a yeshiva learning all day does not qualify as a qualification. You need special certifications from the state and courses. All applicants who wish to be special ed teachers must have them.
Abba-unless things are drastically different in NY nobody will give you private placement because of language. Not a special needs student, and certainly not a general ed student. Also, the lawyers for the school are paid by the school, the lawyers representing the child are either doing it pro bono, or they are getting paid by the parent. The parent pays them whether they win or lose, and the school gives nothing to anyone but their own team.
There is a lot of testing and documenting that gets done before a child is considered for private placement. If a child understands English, it will be discovered but even if he doesn’t it is not even on the bottom of the list of reasons to tuition out.
Syag Lchochma
The Special Ed that I am referring to are Developmental Disable most can’t speak period. You are correct that if the STATE doesn’t accept Federal Funds than the parent is liable for all their legal expenses. But Federal law states that if you take any federal funds for any type of educational and deny special ed services and the parent appeals and wins the Board of Education pays the parent’s legal fees. Since every state takes Educational funding any board that denies special ed. services and loses on appeal and doesn’t pay the parent’s legal fees risk losing all their federal educational funding which can run into millions of dollars a year.
You are right that there is a lot of testing by both the board’s experts and the parent’s experts. Everyone agree these children are special needs. The question is do they know and understand English. But when the child can’t speak and has mental problems besides that how do you know if the child understands English.
If you feel that there is no need to educate a child in a language that the student understands you are warehousing the student and should change the name from Board of Education to BOARD OF CORRECTIONS because that where they are going.
Also if you are saying before anyone is placed in outside the public school there is all types of documentation why is one of the complaints that the Lakewood 5 Towns & East Ramapo Boards of Education is that the special ed is too expensive. Everything is documented. Now if you are going to say the board approve special ed without documentation, that would be theft of service, a criminal offence. These boards are audited every year by the state and if they did anything criminal they would have been charged and the state would have taken them over.
A school bus holds 49 children and the school monitor’s busing route is to have the buses go up central street and have pick up students from all the schools on the same bus. If the bus picked all 49 students and each student goes to a different school and it takes 10 minutes from one school to the next school, it would take 480 minutes or 8 hours. If a van was used which hold 19 children it would take 180 minutes, three hours. This does not take in to consideration the time to pick up the students nor the time to get to the first school. It also doesn’t take into consideration the driver’s lunch break and coffee breaks. By the time they get to school it will be over. Also if the student are on the bus more than 3 hours the students will need lunch too. The drivers are going to be making overtime. Before this change the driver worked maybe 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening every day or 20 hours a week. Now they will be working 9-10 hours in the morning and two hour in the evening 55-60 hours every hour over 40 hours per week, that 15-20 hours overtime,which is usually time and a half. Who is going to pay for this? If it’s the district, busing expense just tripled and if it’s the bus company they will be bankrupt within the month.
I am not saying this will happen but it could happen.
Abba, you really should consider a career in writing fantasy novels. In your long winded, complicated scare scenarios, you have yet to address three points:
1. A majority of the students in the courtesy zone probably live less than a mile from school, not rwo and a half, and don’t need budding.
2. How do yeshiva kids manage to get to shul, friends on Shabbos without a bus? Walking perhaps?
3. Do they not teach English in the private schools? Unless they are also illegal immigrants, why would they need private placement for instruction in Yiddish?
Abba – I am sorry, i am having a lot of trouble understanding your responses. I am also talking about Developmentally Disabled. There is no right that I know of that requires children are taught in their native tongue. There are hundreds of children in the public schools that speak no english and they get modifications and reading help but thats it. The special ed programs that teach children of different languages are hardly warehousing. What an awful thing to say. We have many kids who speak no language, or no english, and they are loved and encouraged and they learn to communicate in their own way. The lawyers for the parents are not paid by the schools under any circumstances that I could find. and we were not talking about a district deny special ed services, as you mentioned in your response. we were talking about a parent wanting the public school to pay for private school tuition because the child speaks yiddish. you cannot win a tuitioning out unless you can prove that the district is unable to educate the child in the least restrictive environment. that is in regard to their functioning level, not their religion or language. the public schools can successfully teach children with NO language, so a second language is not an issue.
And i take offense at the implication that frum parents will have the lawyer pretend that their child does not understand english if he does. that is called sheker, and genaiva and is not something to spout pridefully. Hopefully these parents you speak of who fight for funding this way dont also have a cleaning lady/baby sitter in their house who speaks no english but is left with all their young children anyway.
Joseph, Abba was basing this argument on the public school students living 2 and a half miles away.
Also, what they speak at home is irrelevant to what the school teaches. Do they teach English?
However, the additional funding would mostly be covered by the additional housing that is being taxed while not using the public school system. The incremental costs that are not for school costs are being covered by the increased tax base.
So ask yourself why the huge amount of housing being built in Lakewood is not causing a corresponding huge increase in tax revenue.
I don’t know why not, but (obviously) it isn’t.
The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, (IDEA), and provides parents with the right to resolve disputes with your school district. There are two ways to resolve disputes, mediation and through a due process hearing. If parent goes through the due process hearing and wins the case the parent’s legal fees are paid by the board of education. If you don’t believe me you can google the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
The student who doesn’t speak English but is taught by the public school and learns anyway is to be commended. But the parent is suppose to advocate for their child so that the student can get the best education available. By denying their child the services he needs they are no different than the person who is entitled to food stamps (SNAP) but starves themselves and their children rather than take it. Special Education is an entitlement which any parent can ask for their child.
There are three levels of special ed in Lakewood Premier which cost $140,000.00 per year (SCHI), standard private school (Bais Faige) which cost $70,000.00 and the public school which cost about $40,000.00. If the parent uses mediation they loses their rights to have their legal expenses paid by the board of education if they win but can use an advocate who will present the case but at a much lower cost. Mediation is a middle ground as long as they have a decent case the will get private placement, even though they may not get the full $70,000.00 private placement services. The next year the parent can always appeal again.
If the parent goes for the formal hearing it’s like a court case and a judge rules based on law. If a lawyer is used and the parent wins the board pays the legal fees, but it must be a lawyer not an advocate. Many lawyers take these cases so that if the parent loses the parent does not have to pay.
Most of these children start school at age 4-5. At this age the developmentally disable can not speak any language and since they have other problems it maybe impossible to prove which language is his mother tongue. So everyone is telling the truth. When in doubt the judge or mediator will usually side with the parent.
As far as babysitter who don’t speak English . These children get Reshab or Dayhab which is a someone who acts as a shadow and stays with the child. This person is paid by social services (the local government agency) and must speak the child’s language plus English. Why do they need a babysitter who does not speak English nor the child’s language, if they already have someone watch the child who does?
I would like these children to be educated in a Jewish environment and grow up to be Jewish. It appears to me that some of you would rather the special ed kids be raised and live as a goy. Perhaps that is why he was born to remedy a sin in a previous lifetime but this time remain a Jew.
your last paragraph is ridiculous. i also would like these children to be EDUCATED in a Jewish environment.
I have been arguing with you about your unclear comments about rights; and about language being grounds for tuitioning out; about legal comments that i don’t think are accurate; about whether or not a child can learn anything in a public school that doesn’t teach in yiddish; and about the fact that you seem to change the scenarios without realizing it. I would never say that a Jew should be in a public school if there is a needles eye window for getting them into a frum environment. I myself had a child at home for a whole year to keep him out of the public school system.
I have also seen, by the way, a group of frum kids (less disabled) fight to be placed in a frum program that did not have the means, understanding or education to support their special needs and many of them did not grow, get educated or maximize thier abilities. They suffered from a lack of therapeutic interventions and suffered from being mishandled by teachers who could not understand them fully. For SOME of those children, I would fully recommended public school. it would be temporary and the only way for them to eventually have a chance in a resource yeshiva program.
You need to be in it for the kids. But honestly, i don’t think you and i had even gotten to that conversation because so much of the presentation did not match anything i know from my experiences and i think all of our up and back was about the process one goes thru to achieve that.
Syag Lchochma
I think you are right we are talking about two different things.
In Kiryat Joel School district all the students who are are taught in the public school are taught in Yiddish and the ratio of is one teacher per six students with three paraprofessionals. Both the teachers and the paraprofessional are special ed certified. And by the way it cost them around $75,000.00 per child. This is the type of special education that I am talking about. In Monsey they have a public school program solely for Jews because of kosherous and the need to teach in Yiddish taught and staffed by Jewish Special Ed certified teachers. And they do not teach Jewish studies. According to the the principals of the school it is working fine but some of the non- Jewish parents in the school want them to be integrated with the rest of the school. If they try to integrate the program all the parent will appeal. If they appeal the program must by law, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act the school must leave the program as is, until a mediation or hearing is made as is their right under the law. They can appeal to either have the program left the way it was or they can request to be transferred to Kiryat Joel’s Public School which will cost almost double not taking in to consideration transportation cost.
I know many yeshiva are not geared for student that have attention disorders. There are drugs that can regulate it so that they can be an A student. The school you are probably referring had a teacher student ratio of at least one teacher per 15 or more students with maybe one or two paraprofessionals. From the way you are talking about it, the teachers and paraprofessionals probably weren’t special ed certified. The idea of Special Ed Yeshivas is great and people would be fighting to get in but the only way to afford it is by having the state pay. It just to expensive to pay via tuition and fundraising.
I have a friend who is Hispanic and as a boy came from Ecuador. The first year he was in the US he was in bilingual(Spanish) education.He convinced his mother to get him out and he learnt English, most of the kids in his bilingual class remained in the program until graduation and never learnt proper English. The same thing will happen here once a kid is in special ed in public school, he or she will remain there until they graduate and their soul will be lost forever.
1) If there are children there who CAN be integrated, it is against the law to keep them self contained. If the program does not accomodate it, then they are out of compliance with the law.
2)The school I mentioned was nothing of the sort you describe.
3) severely handicapped children who remain in public school special ed programs are losing the benefit of a jewish education but you are being dramatic in saying their “souls are lost forever” That is ridiculous. We are talking about children who are so pure that they are not mechuyav in mitzvos. Unless you have decided to change your mind about who we are discussing, you are talking about children who are so disabled that nobody really knows what language they understand. And now you are going to tell me they will be lost forever? Please. They are pure and will remain so. The public school accomodate special diets all the time so kashrus does not HAVE TO BE an issue. are their friends inviting them out to movies? PLEASE, stop changing the stories around every time you want to make a different point.
I am guessing by your posting that English is not your native tongue. Not being able to communicate fluently in English is fine if your community will provide for you in all ways forever (I have no issue with that), but if these kids who are disabled (not learning disabled, but less severely impaired) never leave your system out there and never learn to be fluent in any other language, does your community promise to provide all THEIR needs for them forever as well?
Here in Chicago they will need to be in jobs in the secular community (grocery stores etc) so a Jewish education is THE top priority but so is reading and writing in English. If you cannot provide life skill training and occupations for ALL these disabled children, ALL of their lives, then keeping them away from english language skills is actually very harmful for them.
You are either for the CHILD, or you aren’t. You need to sort out which of your “causes” are really for the child.
Syag Lchochma
I do not know how it is in Chicago but here in NYC they have them in group homes that are sponsored by Jewish Organizations, the male separate from the females. If they get married they get them an apartment. If they are functional enough they get them jobs. The group homes provide not only a place to eat, sleep and take their medicine but also provides entertainment. The homes makes sure he goes to sleep and gets up on time and get along with his housemates. They can live there and are provided with clothing and spending money whether or not they have a job . These homes are only available to developmentally disable who are Jewish and Orthodox. Someone who went to public school wouldn’t fit in.
There are secular group homes also, some are very good but there are also those who take anyone, and this can sometime be very dangerous especially if a roommate is off his meds and is violent.
Since English is your first language, your statement “Here in Chicago they will need to be in jobs in the secular community”.
Shouldn’t it read “Here in Chicago they will need to be employed by the secular society, so while a Jewish education is a top priority so is reading and writing in English equally important”. Are they really into these jobs (you used in 3 time in the first part of the statement). Also are you saying that grocery stores are only secular? Are there no Jewish grocery stores in all of Chicago? Likewise are you saying the only employers in Chicago are secularist. I know the city is in a financial crisis and Rahm Emanuel is your mayor but I didn’t know you need his permission to hire someone. I could understand he might not to want hire more city employees during the fiscal crisis but having the power as to who gets hired or fired this sounds like Communist Russia in the old days.
Nobody said anything about keeping student away from the English language. The reason the parents don’t want the their children integrated in the public school is because whenever it was done Jewish kids come home with X-mas and Easter decoration besides toy from McDonald and Burger King. Who knows if the children ate the burgers or not . Although the parents have warned the schools many times it still kept happening so from the time Kiryat Joel School District was approved and on at least here in New York there will be no integration between Jewish special ed students and the public school student.
Gavra at work
However, the additional funding would mostly be covered by the additional housing that is being taxed while not using the public school system. The incremental costs that are not for school costs are being covered by the increased tax base.
So ask yourself why the huge amount of housing being built in Lakewood is not causing a corresponding huge increase in tax revenue.
I don’t know why not, but (obviously) it isn’t.
Of course there is a massive increase in the tax revenue, but it is all being used for the public schools!
In East Ramapo, can you imagine what would happen if all the Jews would leave and their homes demolished, hence no property taxes would be paid on those properties?
For starters, East Ramapo would have to negotiate with their teachers – something all the school districts surrounding East Ramapo do. Only East Ramapo has enough money to pay the highest salaries and pensions. Nyack, New City etc are all paying much less.
Of course there is a massive increase in the tax revenue, but it is all being used for the public schools!
That is an assumption that does not hold up logically. Enrollment in public schools should be down significantly, so costs should remain the same or go down. Unless you have specific numbers how public school costs have gone up commensurate with tax intakes (for East Ramapo and Lakewood) I don’t see how this is possible.
Circle, even if the Jews move, they would still own their homes and would still owe property taxes and the balance on their mortgage ( how else would they be able to demolish their homes ). They would also be walking away from the enormous and expensive community infrastructure ( shuls, schools, mikvas etc ). This is why yours is an empty threat
That you dont want your kids eating Macdonlds or celebrating a christian holiday, that is a personal choice, not governments responsibility. The taxpayers are not responsible for that
You are not forced to eat Mcdolands or celebrate christmas. Your kid can stay home those days.
The problem is you think your personal choices are requried to be paid by the government. Other gropups could make the same annoucement and the taxpayers would be on the hook for everyone cutural choices and legally Halacha has no priority over any other choice. We do not live in halacha state, we live in a secular non-jewish country and must follow those laws
Gavra At Work
That is an assumption that does not hold up logically. Enrollment in public schools should be down significantly, so costs should remain the same or go down. Unless you have specific numbers how public school costs have gone up commensurate with tax intakes (for East Ramapo and Lakewood) I don’t see how this is possible.
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Perhaps now you can begin to understand the frustration we feel.
It isn’t logical, but that doesn’t stop it from happening.
As the public school population in East Ramapo continues to decrease and at the same time more property tax paying families are building homes and not using the public schools, you end up with more money for fewer pupils.
It’s possible because if the legally voted in tax payer representatives decide to eliminate extras from the school budget, items that other districts in the area don’t offer due to the expense, other people are up in arms.
I would also be upset if people who have to pay for things were taking things that I don’t have to pay for away from me.
Right now, if you buy a $500,000 home, your property taxes would be at least $16,500! Could you imagine if everyone would send their children to public school? If the school budget per student would remain the same as it is now, the property taxes for a $500,000 home would be at least $60,000! Obviously not sustainable. How do the surrounding districts, where 77% of the children population attend public school, have lower property taxes?
The answer is, the parents are careful with the budget because they know it comes out of their pocket. In East Ramapo, there is no need to be careful because the public school parents only have to pay a small amount of the budget as they get to share the expense with the non-public school parents.
Expenses are shared while the expenditures aren’t.
Lesschumras
Circle, even if the Jews move, they would still own their homes and would still owe property taxes and the balance on their mortgage ( how else would they be able to demolish their homes ). They would also be walking away from the enormous and expensive community infrastructure ( shuls, schools, mikvas etc ). This is why yours is an empty threat
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Read carefully.
Not everything is a threat. I was just making a point. I would love to hear your opinion concerning the point I made.
Here is my opinion .You said imagine if all the Jews left and demolished their homes. I replied that , for the reasons stated, that scenario is impossible.
Circle – Once again, you are making an assumption that public school costs have gone up. Please show me the numbers comparing dollars spent on public vs. private vs. special ed over the past 20 years so we can see which one increased. It is much more logical that other costs (such as private school busing and books, as well as special ed placement) are what has gone up while public school costs have gone down.
P.S. If you go to the NYSED website, expenditures on public school children have gone up 10% total over the seven years available on the website, less than 1% per year (which is much less than the 30% for similar school districts). Special ed on the other hand has gone up more than 30% per child. Perhaps you should focus your efforts on cost-cutting there. Even better might be the 76% increase quoted by many for busing costs!!! (Let alone the over payments for legal council).
I would love to hear your opinion concerning the point I made.
The residents would be happy, and others would move in who are wanting to live a more rural/suburban lifestyle (no land that close to NYC would remain vacant). Those people would have children who send to public school, shalom al East Ramapo.
A simpler solution is to encourage the gentiles to move thereby lower the purchase price of houses. Lower real estate prices equal lower property taxes. With fewer public school students and a growing private mandated busing expense eventually the school district will go broke.
Another alternative is to have the state break the district in two, one district for the Orthodox Jews and the other for public school supporters. This way Jewish Taxes goes to school busing and special ed for the Jewish students. Public School supporters’ taxes go for the public school and busing for their students. The only problem is the public school supporters wouldn’t generate enough income to support the public schools students.
Some of you will say it unconstitutional, the separation of church and state. But it is already done here in NY in a place called Kiryat Joel. It was declared unconstitutional twice but they just redrafted the law creating it until it could pass all constitutional questions brought before the court.
Taxes are very high in Lakewood. In NYC which is a high tax area, I have a house that’s assessed at over $800K and pay $6K. In Lakewood a $240K house will cost more than $6K in property tax. Where does all the money go?
Just to explain the Kirayt Joel
There are laws in every state who can form a school district and there are laws in NY. You cant decide that your house is an independent school district and therefore not pay taxes.
Kiryat Joel did not meet the minimum requirements for an independent school district in NY so they wrote a law abut school district creation that only legalized this district in Kiryat Joel and nowhere else in NY (A seperate school district for obviously chassidim based on religion) that was found to be unconstitutional as the only place in NY it applied to was Kiryat Joel so they re-wrote the law and it still only applied to Kiryat Joel and that was declared to be unconstitutional as well. Finally they re–wrote the law a 3rd time that applied to about 5 places in NY (The others did not seek an independent school district) and that was found to be constitutional.
I dont know the laws of school districts and certainly not in NJ, but its unlikely Lakewood could be split up into 2 school districts especially since everyone lives together (unlike Kiryat Joel where very few if any minorities live)
zahavasdad
To create a school district you need a law sometimes called an act, to be passed by both the State’s Assembly and Senate and signed by the Governor. The chances are slim that this will happen. While it took three times for it to happen in Kiryat Joel we now have a blueprint as to how to do it constitutionally as this was litigated in both state and federal courts and most state law don’t vary from state to state.
As to the difficulty in designing the district so it doesn’t include public school students. Many of the new developments such as Westgate which are fully frum, so they have no public school students. And there are many senior communities which don’t allow children, they would want the lower real estate taxes which they would get due to fact they are not paying to educate thousands of kids. Just maybe a hundred special ed. kids. So it is possible although not probable.
2016 is an election year and with the right incentive the politicians may pass the act creating a Jewish Lakewood school district.
As far as razing their homes in Lakewood I think it highly unlikely. However there was a case in LI Grumman Aircraft destroyed their own building in order to get a reduction in real estate taxes after they closed a production line. I don’t know if the Jews moved out of Lakewood would someone else move in. In Newark ,NJ and Jersey City, it has been over 50 years since the riots and it just started to make a come back even though it is close to Manhattan, has mass transit to NYC, and a view of the Hudson River and Manhattan skyline. What make you think that Lakewood would be more desirable? When razing the homes care should be taken not to rupture any home oil tanks as they will contaminate the soil. This maybe why the land will be vacant.
Does anyone know whether the state law that allowed the NJ state monitor to takeover the school board is even constitutional as it allows a bureaucrat to override an elected school board and is taxation without representation? Was it ever challenged in court?
The Yeshiva Administrators wants busing for all and no mixed busing.
The State Monitor wants co-ed busing with one bus route for all students in the district.
The yeshivas could get separate busing by having the boy school start at 7:30 for Sacharis, morning prayers and having the girls start at 8:15 also for Sacharis, morning prayers. This way the boys are on their own bus the girls are on their bus and public school kids are on their bus.
As to busing for all . The Administrators have to swap students. So that a student that is a courtesy busing student in Yeshiva A is swapped with a courtesy busing student from Yeshiva B so that they are both mandated. This will necessitate the opening of additional classrooms. All the yeshivas have parking lots and if each of the 100 yeshivas put 3 modular classrooms there, it would open 10,000 additional seats at a minimal cost. The threat of having an additional 10,000 students on top of the current 25,000 maybe enough to convince the state to fund yeshiva busing separately.
The State Monitor saves money if the same buses used for the boy’s yeshivas are also used for the girls yeshivas and the public school students, just at different times, the cost should be less as there is no need for additional buses. The reason for the co-ed busing and to cut courtesy busing was just to save money which he has gotten. Both sides could claim victory.
According to the Asbury Park Press the school monitor decided to go with separate school busing for yeshiva students all of which would start at around 9:00. All Courtesy busing which will effect 11,000 students, is canceled and after school programs have also been cut.
It seems the school monitor got a pair of letters from an attorney, David J Butler, who according to his website is into class action suits. This maybe why he decided not to implement co-ed busing.
By law parents must be notified by 8/1/2015 of cancellation of school bus service
Many of the yeshivas have their own school buses and if they have the contract to bring their students to school the courtesy school bus students could still be picked up, the yeshiva just wouldn’t be paid for them. For example if there are 8,000 courtesy students and there are 100 yeshiva in Lakewood if each yeshiva swaps 80 students from the other yeshiva and now the students are 2.5 mile from their new school every student is mandated and entitled to free busing.
The same problem is going to happen next year unless the state changes how they fund yeshiva busing. They can’t cut busing because it’s mandated & Special ed .require an Administrative Judge and a hearing to cut.
Zdad: apparently nobody has responded to your McDonalds comment because it’s so over the top. Perhaps you want to reconsider your “logical” points?
Mammele
There are those who feel that since they are special ed, their souls are pure and they are not held accountable for their sins. So even if they eat non kosher food their soul still remains pure. While these students are not held accountable These people don’t realize that by allowing these special ed student to sin they are abusing and debasing the special ed student’s souls, no different than the Kapos in the concentration camps. The only different was the Kapos abused their fellow prisoners’ bodies while these people are condoning the abuse of the student’s souls.
his mcdonalds comment is actually right on the mark, there just isn’t anything to talk about anymore. some people are so unaware of life outside of their daled amos that they actually thing the world spins that way. and other people just keep changing around the details so there is not much option for discussion.
zdad is right. it is not the governments obligation to pay for personal choices and if they do start paying for OUR choices, they will have to start paying for other cultures choices. If your school is still having christmas parties, opt out. kids in my school do it all the time on those very rare ocassions that religion is brought in to the curriculum.
abba – please do not take my words and distort them so perversely. First you have changed your own lines and references, fine. then you started changing mine around and that kind of nullifies the conversation. but this last post is just over the top. here’s what I wrote:
We are talking about children who are so pure that they are not mechuyav in mitzvos.
The public schools accomodate special diets all the time so kashrus does not HAVE TO BE an issue.
here’s what YOU think that means:
There are those who feel that since they are special ed, their souls are pure and they are not held accountable for their sins. So even if they eat non kosher food their soul still remains pure.
and then you have the chutzpah to compare those of us who care for these childrens souls to kapos! You are a sick man, sir. A sick man.
Mammale, in the thread about East Ramapo, you did not think Music , Arts and sports were important and didnt want to pay for it and said if the parents wanted those things they should have a bake sale.
Now when it comes to your belifes you are asking those who do not think they are important to pay for it. There are lots of people who think kosher is either nonsense or who dont care, but dont want to pay for it either.
In the Kiryat Joel School district the real issue was not that they wanted their own school district, but that they wanted their own school district and because the tax base wasnt big enough the state would have to subsidize it making people who abhor their choices pay for it.
Its the same in lakewood, There isnt a big enough tax base in lakewood to pay for all these services and they need the entire state to chip in and subsidize it. And they are asking the state right now to pay and the taxpayers in other parts of the state dont want to pay.
The public schools accomodate special diets all the time so kashrus does not HAVE TO BE an issue.
Actually, religious accommodation falls under the first amendment, health concerns do not.
I propose that Abba_S be required to withdraw from the discussion due to Godwin’s Law.
I would like to apologize for the crude remark I made regrading those who would feed non-kosher food to Jewish special ed kids. I am sorry if I offended anyone.Using their logic they should be feeding their own minor (girls under 12 years old and boys under 13 years old) children non-kosher food which everyone would consider a sin. At least everyone who is yeshivish, but what do I know.
This year Lakewood School District’s budget has $26 million for special education the majority of it goes to special ed for Orthodox students who go to private schools. In order to get private placement of special ed the parent must convince an administrative law judge in a hearing or a mediator if it mediation, that private placement is in the best interest of the child. One of the reason the parents are winning is that yeshivas speak their language (Yiddish), know the culture and can provide kosher food which are services the public school can’t provide.
Currently it cost the district $65K – $70K per child per year for private placement special education while the same services provided at a public school would cost $35K – $40K per child, per year, If these kids would be in a public school it would save the district over $30K per child. If you take into consideration that the state pays $30k per student attending public school, your net cost is only $5K – $ $10K per child a savings of $60K per child.
In order to get these children into the public school,the district will have to win the hearts and minds of the parents of these special ed kids convincing them that the public school is better in the following way:
1) Better facilities.
2)Better Kosher Food
3) Better Yiddish & Hebrew Teachers
Special ed is a mandated service which is not controlled by the school monitor he can request a hearing but it will take up until two years to get a hearing during which time the child remains in the yeshiva. And unless he can prove that the public school is better for the child by providing these services he wouldn’t win. In fact he can actually lose as besides paying legal fees for the parent and the school, the parent can win additional services such as summer camp (school) which will cost an additional $14,000.00 per year for at least the next two years.
I would like to wish you all a happy and healthy new year. I don’t expect to convince you to my way of thinking nor will you convince me to your way of thinking.
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