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Is there any halachic basis a beis din could stop a developer from building on his own property because neighbors don’t want the development?
I’m just saying that all sorts of assumptions, with negative connotations, are being made with no evidence.
Facts:
1: The land is owned by BMG.
2: There is a plan to develop a shopping center there.
It follows that:
The plan to develop the shopping center on land owned by BMG was proposed by the owners/decision makers of BMG.
Hence, if Rav Aaron has the final say in the Yeshiva (as I believe), he made this decision. If Rav Malkiel has the final say (as Joe says), then he made this decision. Either way, BMG has made its decision. Going against that decision means that you are going against BMG.
Rav Feivel Cohen is on record as saying that a beis din should decide.
For my own curiosity, what right does he have over the head of BMG? Also, what sort of Taynah would others have to not allow BMG to do what they want in their own land? It is not as if they are Shutfin in the land or the road(s) leading up to the land.
Finally, would the Bais Din reimburse BMG the lost revenue if it rules against them? :p
Is there any halachic basis a beis din could stop a developer from building on his own property because neighbors don’t want the development?
I can think of a few (such as sewage disposal issues or Hezek Reiyah), but none of which would apply here.
A beis din has jurisdiction over anyone. All Jews are subject to beis din. And anyone has a halachic right to take another Jew to beis din for a binding ruling.
A beis din has jurisdiction over anyone. All Jews are subject to beis din. And anyone has a halachic right to take another Jew to beis din for a binding ruling.
Sure, my question is why does Rabbi Cohen have jurisdiction in Lakewood on BMG and not a senior Posek like Rav Dovid Feinstein (who adjudicated the “Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter”).
I dont think you can take someone to Beis Din against their will. I find it really hard to belive that if some Satmar desides to take me to a Satmar Beis Din I have to comply (I have nothing to do with the Satmar community, thats why i picked that one) nor do i think a Satmar Beis din would even entertain such a though knowing there is little they could do to make me obey
Moderator – we have a chiyuv to judge the lady favorably and assume that neither the Roshei Yeshivas or R’ Aaron Kotler agreed to this development, and that even if they did, she did not know that.
We are not allowed to consider any other possibility, and if someone says otherwise, we are not allowed to believe them. (btw, this was the case before someone claimed that the Roshei Yeshivas only knew about this yesterday. I just thought that now people will have a better understanding as to why it was problematic to be assuming that the RY’s knew about this).
We can simulaneously judge the developers favorably that they were under the impression that the Roshei Yeshivas agreed to them.
As for the posters who were posting Motzi Shem Ra, we can judge them favorably that they did not realize it was Motzi Shem Ra and would want to know so that they can correct their errors.
“Sure, my question is why does Rabbi Cohen have jurisdiction in Lakewood “
Rav Feivel Cohen is a most certainly a “Senior” Posek. R Elyashiv used to refer shailos in America to him. And he lives in Lakewood.
And apparently what he said is that this is a matter for a Beis Din.
I don’t think he said what the Beis Din should pasken.
I am guessing Rav Feivel was asked by people who live in Pine River Village, which is right across from the proposed mall and is also where Rav Feivel lives.
Rav Feivel Cohen is a most certainly a “Senior” Posek.
OK. I mentioned Rav Dovid because that is who Rav Shmuel went to when he had his question about the heter.
I am guessing Rav Feivel was asked by people who live in Pine River Village, which is right across from the proposed mall and is also where Rav Feivel lives.
Which would make him a Ba’al Davar, and a pasul Dayan.
Sure, my question is why does Rabbi Cohen have jurisdiction in Lakewood
He didn’t say he does; in fact, he said that he does not have a beis din. He simply said that the matter belongs in beis din.
lilmod ulelamaid – And I’ll judge you favorably that you are really Rav Feivel Cohen, a “Senior” Posek, to come out with all of those P’sakim.
Furthermore, you are making the assumption that the development is negative. Why are you not Dan L’Kaf Zechus that the development is positive?
🙂
I dont think you can take someone to Beis Din against their will.
No defendant ever wants to be taken to beis din, but if sent a hazmanah, has to go.
we have a chiyuv to judge the lady favorably and assume that neither the Roshei Yeshivas or R’ Aaron Kotler agreed to this development
Why are you assuming that it is wrong to build this development?
DY – Finding out that Rav Cohen lives nearby, it makes more sense that he is involved (as a Ba’al Dovor, not a Dayan).
No defendant ever wants to be taken to beis din, but if sent a hazmanah, has to go.
Having never been called to Beis Din (Beli Ayin Hara), how does that work? If a Bais Din in Lakewood calls me in, can I respond with a suggestion to go to a Bais Din in Chicago instead?
“Which would make him a Ba’al Davar, and a pasul Dayan.”
Rag Feivel never said he was a dayan. He said this is a matter for Beis Din.
He was asked a shailah as to what would be proper. That is exactly what he responded to.
You seem to be somewhat confused about the meaning of certain titles throughout this whole discussion.
Finding out that Rav Cohen lives nearby, it makes more sense that he is involved (as a Ba’al Dovor, not a Dayan).
How does his living nearby impact his statement that it belongs in beis din?
How does his living nearby impact his statement that it belongs in beis din?
It explains his involvement. He is a Ba’al Dovor, so his statement has more weight (i.e. he can bring BMG to Bais Din).
I’m sure he was dragged into this because he lives there, but it seems to me that he was objecting to use of arkaos.
I am not sure that anything went to “arkaos”. From what I am reading and watching the video, there is a need for zoning approval before anything can be built or sold to a commercial endeavor.
R’ Feivel did not speak in the capacity of a rabbi. He spoke as a concerned private citizen who lives near the planned mall, as do many others.
Regarding the actual construction and its affect on quality of life, traffic, congestion etc., he said that he had no opinion.
His opinion was a religious one. He said that the question of building the mall vs the objections of the residents was one for Bes Din, not city hall.
I’m sure he was dragged into this because he lives there, but it seems to me that he was objecting to use of arkaos.
Wow. That we had to get to that point shows the sorry state of things 🙁 I didn’t know this was sued against (or for) in secular court. And to interrupt in the middle!!! Certainly not Kavod HaTorah.
Rav Cohen specifically states on the video that he is not a Dayan.
Why? Because it’s too late! And you wrote it in your own post.
R’ Feivel did not speak in the capacity of a rabbi. He spoke as a concerned private citizen who lives near the planned mall, as do many others.
Regarding the actual construction and its affect on quality of life, traffic, congestion etc., he said that he had no opinion.
His opinion was a religious one. He said that the question of building the mall vs the objections of the residents was one for Bes Din, not city hall.
Agreed.
That we had to get to that point shows the sorry state of things 🙁 I didn’t know this was sued against (or for) in secular court.
I could be wrong, but I think he was including complaints to zoning boards in arkaos.
GAW – “ulelamaid – And I’ll judge you favorably that you are really Rav Feivel Cohen, a “Senior” Posek, to come out with all of those P’sakim.”
They aren’t my Psakim. They are the Chofetz Chaim’s. Everything I said is straight out of Hilchos Loshon Hora. You don’t have to be a poseik to tell someone that they can’t turn on the light on Shabbos, and you don’t have to be a poseik to tell someone that it is assur to speak or to be mekabel loshon hora.
GAW: – “Furthermore, you are making the assumption that the development is negative. Why are you not Dan L’Kaf Zechus that the development is positive?”
DY: “Why are you assuming that it is wrong to build this development?”
I didn’t assume that it is wrong to build the development. What I wrote is that we have to assume either that the Roshei Yeshiva did not say that it has to be done or that they did and the lady was not aware of that fact.
Some posters were assuming that the Roshei Yeshiva and/or R’ Aaron Kotler agreed to the development and that that meant that the lady was doing something wrong. If the Roshei Yeshiva agreeing to the development would mean that the lady is doing something wrong, it is assur to believe that the Roshei Yeshiva agreed to the development.
Since these posters think that if the Roshei Yeshiva agreed to the development it would mean that the lady is doing something wrong, they are not allowed to believe or say that the Roshei Yeshiva agreed to the development.
In terms of the developers, read my previous post. I pointed out how we can be “dan l’kaf zchus” them as well.
I focused more on being “dan l’kaf zchus” the lady since she was the one about whom motzi shem ra was being discussed. And I was trying to undo some of the damage done and prevent more from being done. If it had been the other way around, I would have focused more on being “dan l’kaf zchus” the developers. But in any case, I did present their side as well.
GAW – if you want specific sources for the halachos quoted, I will be happy to try to look them up for you. But only on condition that you promise to actually read them. I’m kind of tired of looking up and typing up sources only to have them ignored. Thank you.
OMG, LOL to LUL.
End story, IMHO, the real slight to Kavod HaTorah is those who interrupted Rav Feivel Cohen and tried to stop him from speaking. I would like to be Moche.
P.S. She specifically says in the video that she will go speak to the Roshei Yeshiva. You don’t need to be Dan L’Kaf Zechus to say that she doesn’t think BMG approved of the development.
“LOL to LUL.”
What was that supposed to mean??
“P.S. She specifically says in the video that she will go speak to the Roshei Yeshiva. You don’t need to be Dan L’Kaf Zechus to say that she doesn’t think BMG approved of the development.”
You seemed to think that she was acting against Daas Torah by speaking to the Roshei Yeshiva. It sounded like you (and/or others? I no longer remember exactly who said what) thought that the Roshei Yeshiva were clearly in favor and t/f she is acting against Daas Torah by discussing it with them. If she doesn’t think BMG (or any Gadol) approved of the development, she is certainly not acting against Daas Torah.
His opinion was a religious one. He said that the question of building the mall vs the objections of the residents was one for Bes Din, not city hall.
Construction and buildings affect more than just jews. I think Lakewood is only 50% jewish
LUL, I agree with what you said.
You took the “dan L’Kaf Zechus” response too seriously.
My point was that she will lose, not that she was willfully and purposefully going against an ex cathedra decision made by daas torah :-p
GAW – thanks for clarifying! I totally thought you meant something very different. I have been REALLY upset by the Motzi Shem Ra being spread by some of the posters here about the lady. I don’t remember exactly who said what, but there definitely were inappropriate things said. But I’m glad to hear that wasn’t your point.
derech agav, I find the title of the thread very upsetting. That is definitely Motzi Shem Ra. Even when you are allowed to say something about someone, you are not allowed to use a subjective negative adjective (such as screaming) to describe them. There are other words that could have been used that are accurate and don’t have such a negative connotation.
I remember once calling the Shmiras Halashon hotline to ask them if I was allowed to tell someone that a certain boy whom she was upset at because he had forgotten that he had agreed to go out with her on a second date was spacy so that she wouldn’t be upset, and the Rav told me to use a different word instead of spacy that he thought sounded better (I can’t remember what it was.)
derech agav, I find the title of the thread very upsetting. That is definitely Motzi Shem Ra.
I figured Ferd is the woman’s husband, or perhaps even herself. Otherwise I don’t believe someone would be so bold to distribute a video like that.
You don’t have to be bold to post a link to a video nowadays, especially if you do so anonymously. Since the advent of the internet, it has become completely acceptable to shmear people all over the world.
And if he were her husband, he would not have posted such a title.
LUL – Could be.
Is there any halachic basis a beis din could stop a developer from building on his own property because neighbors don’t want the development?
Yes. Perek Lo Yachpur and the halachos of Nizkei Schanim discuss when you may not build on your property due to the adverse effect it will have on the neighbors.
Having never been called to Beis Din (Beli Ayin Hara), how does that work? If a Bais Din in Lakewood calls me in, can I respond with a suggestion to go to a Bais Din in Chicago instead?
You can not ignore a hazmona but you don’t have to litigate in the BD that issued it. You can suggest a different BD. If the plaintiff doesn’t agree to your BD then each of you can pick a dayan and those two dayonim pick a third dayan to form a zabla BD.
Yes. Perek Lo Yachpur and the halachos of Nizkei Schanim discuss when you may not build on your property due to the adverse effect it will have on the neighbors.
I talked about Nizkei Shechanim earlier and don’t see them as applicable here. Those are only if something on your property will move on its own or otherwise affect others use of their or joint property. Besides, we (Pashtus) pasken like Rebbe Yose that one is not Mechuyav to be Marchik except Geeri Delai.
Joe -“Is there any halachic basis a beis din could stop a developer from building on his own property because neighbors don’t want the development?”
The problem over here is that the neighbors aren’t Halachah neighbors!
So I doubt she could win in Bais Din.
I also doubt that she could win in State court.
In order to get something go viral, you need to post it around. Thats how it goes viral. When other people see it, they will pass it around
However depending on the video. It might get passed for the wrong reason or with other motives.
Ive seen this video posted elsewhere and the posters motives were not the same as the OP’s motives
“However depending on the video. It might get passed for the wrong reason or with other motives.”
Which could pose a serious halachic problem.
In addition, we don’t even know that she gave permission for the video to be taken or posted and passed around in the first place.
Plus, whatever the intentions of the OP, the title and some of the posters’ comments are problematic.
In The Aseres Hadibros
the seemingly relatively mundane
“Lo Sachmod..Kol asher L’rei’echa”
is added
HOw come?
On top of all the previous justified assertions opposing the New Shopping Mall, there is a concept of
????? ???? ?????
Aaron Kotler told me personally more than a decade ago that if/when lakewood becomes too commercialized, they/he would move BMG out of town
He must’ve had a change of heart since somehow ..
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