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1. We don’t know what the Gedolim said about this.
If you hold the titular roshei yeshiva of BMG to be “Gedolim” (one is on the “Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah”), then the Gedolim approve of the development.
2. Even if the Gedolim gave their approval (which we don’t know), I’m sure they never said that this has to happen or that someone is not allowed to protest.
3. She certainly has a right to speak to Roshei Yeshiva about it and express her opinion.
I’ll remember that next time anyone brings up “following the Gedolim”. I certainly have the right to protest and fight their shittos until I have the time to discuss the issue with them directly, without an intermediary. Looks like I get to vote Meretz after all 🙂
“She certainly has a right to speak to Roshei Yeshiva about it and express her opinion.” does not = “I’ll remember that next time anyone brings up “following the Gedolim”. I certainly have the right to protest and fight their shittos until I have the time to discuss the issue with them directly, without an intermediary. Looks like I get to vote Meretz after all :)”
Gaw feels that based on what he quoted he got carte blanche to protest the shittos of the Gedolim.
Sure looks that way to me too.
So what should we do when we disagree with a project the Gedolim support?
Yell and scream in public?
Request (or demand) an audience and yell at them in private?
Burn dumpsters?
Other?
(Never mind. I notice lady in video ignored my questions too.)
(Gaw, please don’t vote meretz!)
Speaking to the gedolim doenst mean shouting and screaming in public
A quick clarification: Ahron Kotler is most certainly *not* the Rosh Yeshiva of BMG, or a member the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah. He runs the business side of BMG (quite successfully), and the only yeshiva policies that he decides are the financial ones (hence the title of CEO). He’s a great guy, but he’s he’s a businessman, not a Rabbi – and I think he’d be at least as shocked as anybody else to hear somebody suggest otherwise. (Although perhaps not as shocked as some of the right-wingers of Lakewood, who don’t particularly like him.)
– From somebody who actually learnt in BMG, just relating the facts on the ground.
A quick clarification: Ahron Kotler is most certainly *not* the Rosh Yeshiva of BMG, or a member the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah. He runs the business side of BMG (quite successfully), and the only yeshiva policies that he decides are the financial ones (hence the title of CEO). He’s a great guy, but he’s he’s a businessman, not a Rabbi – and I think he’d be at least as shocked as anybody else to hear somebody suggest otherwise. (Although perhaps not as shocked as some of the right-wingers of Lakewood, who don’t particularly like him.)
– From somebody who actually learnt in BMG, just relating the facts on the ground.
You haven’t said anything new. The Golden Rule states he who has the Gold makes the Rules. Although some grandchildren/in-law ended up with the title rosh yeshiva, only one person runs the yeshiva. Hence the head of the Yeshiva is HaRav HaGaon Aaron Kotler Shilitah, whether he gives a shiur or not.
gaw, the Roshei Yeshivos of BMG are Mr. Aharon Kotler’s bosses. He does only what they want him to do.
mw13, isn’t anything Mr. Kotler does on behalf of BMG and it’s financial interests have, by definition, the approval and sanction of the roshei hayeshivos?
Just trying to follow, are there currently two members of the BMG administration named Aharon/Ahron/Aaron Kotler?
gaw, the Roshei Yeshivos of BMG are Mr. Aharon Kotler’s bosses. He does only what they want him to do.
LOL
If for nothing else, Rav Aaron Kotler was a Rebbe in Aish for five years.
Totally agree with you Zdad!
It seemed to me that Gaw felt the shouting and screaming in public was being sanctioned by a poster in the CR (based on the post he quoted from). That post seemed to say the same thing to me as well.
I’m not sure I’m necessarily in favor of speaking to Gedolim myself when I don’t understand something they’re doing.
But shouting and screaming in public is ill advised regardless of who’s perpetrating the perceived injustice.
Seems we agree on that!
And he is the Rosh Yeshiva. Says so on all the documents. Rav Aaron Kotler, CEO. CEO (in America) means he is in charge, no matter who gives or doesn’t give shiur.
Would you say that Richard Joel is the Rosh Yeshiva of RIETS?
If you hold the titular roshei yeshiva of BMG to be “Gedolim” (one is on the “Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah”), then the Gedolim approve of the development.
Do you have any information regarding any Gedolim without a potential financial interest?
GAW: “You haven’t said anything new. The Golden Rule states he who has the Gold makes the Rules. Although some grandchildren/in-law ended up with the title rosh yeshiva, only one person runs the yeshiva. Hence the head of the Yeshiva is HaRav HaGaon Aaron Kotler Shilitah, whether he gives a shiur or not.”
This is quite cynical, and frankly I feel it is denigrating to the actual roshei yeshiva of Lakewood. Those “grandchildren/in-law who ended up with the title rosh yeshiva” got those titles years before R’ Aharon joined the administration to bail the yeshiva out of its financial crisis. And giving inappropriate accolades to the one who runs the business without even bothering to mention the Roshei Yeshiva by name is even more insulting to Kovod haTorah. For the record, and to rectify this insult, the Rosh Yeshiva of Lakewood are R’ Malkiel Kotler, son of the previous R”Y, Rav Shneur; and R’ Dovid Shustal, R’ Yerucham Olshin and R’ Yisroel Friedman, all married to granddaughters of R Aharon. I have purposely left off the fancy titles since they are bandied about too often these days and say nothing about whether a person is a talmid chochom/gadol.
Golfer – First of all, there are halachic problems with what you are writing, as I pointed out before. Even if you are right, it would still be loshon hora. When you speak L”H about someone else, no matter what they did, speaking L”H is worse.
Second of all, you have completely misquoted me. I wrote, “She certainly has a right to speak to Roshei Yeshiva about it and express her opinion. As ZD wrote, “Speaking to the gedolim doenst mean shouting and screaming in public”.
Third of all, you contradict yourself. First you say that you agree with ZD, and then you claim that my saying that she has a right to speak to the Roshei Yeshiva means she has a right to shout and scream in public.
Fourth of all, (and most important), our obligation is to try to be “dan l’kaf zchus” period.
Fifth of all: “Gaw feels that based on what he quoted he got carte blanche to protest the shittos of the Gedolim.
Sure looks that way to me too.”
No one said any such thing. Again, as I said before, we have no idea what any Gedolim said about this. And all I said is that she has a right to discuss the issue with the Roshei Yeshiva.
Rav Yisroel Neuman, not Friedman.
LU
Say a gadol buys the land next to your house and decides to build a 10 story Yeshiva.
Would you have the right to protest, would you have the right to protest at the zoning board?
Remember a 10 story yeshiva dont always bring good results. People late for minyan might block your driveway. The yeshiva might block your views. The yeshiva will be loud
You are all missing the point. Lakewood was established as an Ir Hatorah. While many have moved here over the years for other reasons, we cannot lose sight of the original foundation the community is built on!
Furthermore, for a yeshiva to build a mall is not the same as a businessman building a mall. While it is ok for the Yeshiva to look for ways to make money, a mall sort of defeats the whole purpose of having the Yeshiva community established!
Last, we all know that there are many Yidden in the malls, and that’s ok. But putting the mall right in Lakewood is definitely asking for problems!
We need to preserve whatever Ruchniyus is left in this town, not challenge it with malls and such.
GAW: “You haven’t said anything new. The Golden Rule states he who has the Gold makes the Rules. Although some grandchildren/in-law ended up with the title rosh yeshiva, only one person runs the yeshiva. Hence the head of the Yeshiva is HaRav HaGaon Aaron Kotler Shilitah, whether he gives a shiur or not.”
This is quite cynical, and frankly I feel it is denigrating to the actual roshei yeshiva of Lakewood….
It is actually a P’sak of Rav Shach (the Mir succession Din Torah). The Rosh Yeshiva is the person who creates and is responsible for the financial well-being of the yeshiva by raising money for the yeshiva, not the person who gives the top shiur or the biggest Lamdan. I’ll take Rav Shach over an anonymous internet person any day.
Besides, in all honesty, what are the chances that any one of the titular Roshei Yeshiva would be a “Rosh Yeshiva” in Lakewood had they not been a grandson or grandson in law? Halacha says they get the title, but nothing else.
Dash – I know nothing about YU (Richard Joel is YU, no?). Perhaps you can enlighten us? I don’t understand your second comment. Are you (rather cynically) saying that Gedolim only do things that are in their financial interest?
FS12 – No argument, but the Yeshiva (BMG) is entrenched in the town of Lakewood, which is no longer a “Yeshiva town”, but “in town”.
Unfortunately.
Richard Joel is not the Rosh Yeshiva of YU, He was the president of YU. Rav Schecter is the Rosh Yeshiva of YU
In general the more modern places are run differently. A board of directors controls the place and in fact the board of directions fired Richard Joel.
There is no such power at BMG
GAW: “Besides, in all honesty, what are the chances that any one of the titular Roshei Yeshiva would be a “Rosh Yeshiva” in Lakewood had they not been a grandson or grandson in law? Halacha says they get the title, but nothing else.”
The yeshiva belongs to the Kotler family, obviously a relative would be named Rosh Yeshiva. And would R’ Aron Kotler have been chosen as CEO had he not been a grandson?
“I’ll take Rav Shach over an anonymous internet person any day.”
This is not just an anonymous internet person deciding who is R”Y. It seems everyone but you refers to R’ Aron as the CEO, and R’ Malkiel, R Shustal, R’ Olshin and R’ Neumann (sorry about the original mistake, I meant to write R’ Neumann all long, I don’t know how it came out wrong…) as the Roshei Yeshiva.
I don’t know the psak that you are referring to, but based on what you wrote, it would not apply to R’ Aron Kotler (the second), since he did not create the yeshiva. And if only one condition applies, based on what you wrote, that would mean that the fundraiser is automatically the Rosh Yeshiva in any yeshiva.
Traditioanlly, the one who opens the yeshiva is the Rosh Yeshiva and is responsible for raising the funds. But, and especially as the yeshiva grows, this can become an impossible task and is often delegated to a fundraiser. Does that mean he relinquishes his position as R”Y when he does this?
The Richard Joel comparison is not so precise- he is the president of Yeshiva University, which puts him in charge of RIETS and every undergrad and grad program in YU. RIETS is the yeshiva division of the university, and has its own Roshei Yeshiva. And by the way, Joel is actually stepping down, to be replaced by R’ Ari Berman.
In BMG the Roshei Yeshivos shlita are the bosses of the CEO. In YU the Roshei Yeshivos are not the bosses.
In BMG the Roshei Yeshivos shlita are the bosses of the CEO. In YU the Roshei Yeshivos are not the bosses.
Half true, but you are at least Modeh that the titular “Rosh Yeshiva” is not always the person in charge 🙂
WinnieThePooh – Not sure what your point is. Are you saying that BMG is a family business and it doesn’t matter who gets which title, the business is run by the family as a whole (and the family as a whole is responsible for fundraising, etc.), vs. YU where someone from the outside is hired and is responsible to a board of directors?
WinnieThePooh – I think you added a critical point. There is the “owner” of the Yeshiva, and the “Rosh Yeshiva”. While the first person makes the decisions (and is the “real” Rosh Yeshiva), the second may be brought in for whatever reason, and serves at the whim of the Yeshiva’s owners.
Ner Yisroel may be (and I’m not that familiar with the situation) a similar idea (and this may not be the Metzius, but hear me out). Although the “Rosh Yeshiva” is Rav Feldman, he serves at the whim of the Neuberger family, who installs their own people in positions of power within the organization.
No GAW, that is not what I am saying. Yu is a university with a head who runs it, as in any university. one part of it is a yeshiva with rosh yeshiva who has no say over the other schools.
BMG is a yeshiva, and like many yeshivas, its reins are passed down to the most qualified within the family. It currently has 4 Roshei Yeshiva and 1 CEO. And even though the money is obviously important and the yeshiva could not survive and spread Torah without it, the priority of any Yeshiva is its Torah learning, and therefore the most kavod is given to the ones who teach it, ie the Roshei Yeshiva. And that should be true no matter who is “calling the shots”, for example, when it comes to building a mall. Suggesting otherwise is denigrating to Torah and its teachers.
GAW -“Are you saying that BMG is a family business and it doesn’t matter who gets which title, the business is run by the family as a whole (and the family as a whole is responsible for fundraising, etc.), vs. YU where someone from the outside is hired and is responsible to a board of directors?”
IDK if that’s what he’s saying, but it’s definitely true!
GAW (and now Health, since you have joined the discussion) my issue is not who owns or runs the Yeshiva, but who gets the kovod of being the Rosh Yeshiva- the one who actually teaches Torah. Ner Yisroel is a better example for what you are arguing since R’ Neuberger actually founded the Yeshiva together with Rav Ruderman in the first place and was instrumental in running it. Yet despite the fact that Ner Yisroel would not exist without him, R’ Neuberger never referred to himself as the Rosh Yeshiva or considered himself a gadol hador, but rather its President, a position filled by his son today. When it comes to BMG and its CEO, al achas kama v’kama, since R’ Aharon Kotler (the second) was only brought in later, did not found the Yeshiva, and started working for the yeshiva more than a decade after the current roshei yeshivas were appointed.
GAW (and now Health, since you have joined the discussion) my issue is not who owns or runs the Yeshiva, but who gets the kovod of being the Rosh Yeshiva- the one who actually teaches Torah.
No problem. The Kavod can go to the titular Roshei Yeshiva because they give the top shiur, etc. The power is still in the hands of the real Rosh Yeshiva, the person in charge.
If it makes you happy, Rav Malkiel etc. can be the titular “Kavod Rosh Yeshiva”. The real head of the Yeshiva, who gets the Bizyonos of having to raise funds and the Schar of having to actually run the yeshiva, will be HaRav HaGaon Rav Aaron Kotler, Bizyonos Rosh Yeshiva of BMG. 🙂
Shalom al Yisroel
This sounds awfully complicated. Let me give an example of the Mirrer Yeshiva in Yerushalayim and see how the ‘oilem’ takes it.
When Rav Beinush Finkel zatza”l was nifter, His son in law, Rav Noson Zvi Finkel zatza”l was appointed Rosh yeshiva. At the time, Rav Refoel Shmuelevitz zatza”l made a quiet protest on behalf of the Shmuelevitz branch of the Finkel family. Perhaps as the eldest son of Reb Chaim zatza”l he should be appointed R”Y. The case went before Rav Schach zatza”l. He asked R’ Refoel, are you willing to take on the financial burden of the yeshiva?, and the answer was no. So all agreed that R’ Noson Zvi be appointed.
In true Mir style, R’ Noson Zvi insisted that R’ Refoel share the weekly shiur klali, and 5 years ago when R’ Noson Zvi was nifter suddenly, all supported his son R’ Leizer Yudel to take over the yeshiva. (Perhaps cynically, the overdraft was so big, no one else wanted it). To this day, R’ Leizer Yudel and R’ Refoel’s son share the weekly Shiur klali. This is even though there are older (and perhaps greater – but who can judge that) talmidei chachomim in the yeshiva.
My point is, that being a relative of the previous rosh yeshiva does help, but the leadership is not all the kovod, but goes with the responsibility of raising the money.
What is very sad, is when bochurim or other people take sides in a dispute. That is what was destroying Ponovezh a few years ago, and sadly sadly continues in other places, not only yeshivas, but communities and rebistivas (Chasidic courts) where it can and has torn apart families.
WTP -“Yet despite the fact that Ner Yisroel would not exist without him, R’ Neuberger never referred to himself as the Rosh Yeshiva or considered himself a gadol hador, but rather its President, a position filled by his son today.”
Actually, I’m not sure what your point is, but I’ll tell you my point.
The Neubergers’ have total control of NIRC.
And the Kotlers’ bros (just two of them), have total control of BMG!
Health, I thought by now my point was obvious and I didn’t need to post the same thing so many times, but I guess I wasn’t clear enough. I’ll sum it up in 2 words, kavod Hatorah.
Geordie – I have a question for you. If the Rosh Yeshiva decides that his responsibility for the financial support of the yeshiva is best met by hiring a professional administrator who can do a better job than him in raising and handling the money, does that mean that he is relinquishing his title of Rosh yeshiva to his employee? I think that is what is being implied on this thread about BMG.
WtP -“I’ll sum it up in 2 words, kavod Hatorah.”
That’s your mistake. I wasn’t talking about Kovod Hatorah and it had nothing to do with my posts!
Maybe your post should have been directed to GAW, but not to me!
Geordie – I have a question for you. If the Rosh Yeshiva decides that his responsibility for the financial support of the yeshiva is best met by hiring a professional administrator who can do a better job than him in raising and handling the money, does that mean that he is relinquishing his title of Rosh yeshiva to his employee? I think that is what is being implied on this thread about BMG.
Totally different. In your scenario, the head of the yeshiva is still in charge. The buck stops with him, but he hires an employee to assist. If the employee does a poor job, the owner is still responsible. In the Mir/Lakewood situation, the owner is the one who is the ba’al achrayus and hence the “Rosh Yeshiva”.
gaw, in this scenario of BMG that you’ve weaved in this thread, who do you imagine was the Rosh Yeshiva of BMG until the day before Mr. Aharon Kotler joined BMG’s administration as CEO?
GAW – I’ll let everyone else explain why you can’t just decide that R’ Aaron Kotler is the Rosh Yeshiva.
But, I will just point out that if you are giving him that title based on the fact that he is in charge of financial decisions, he is certainly not Daas Torah which is what this discussion had been about, and no one is obligated to listen to him.
I dont think Aaron Kotler would be doing anything without the approval and conscent of Rav Malkiel Kotler and Rav Yisroel Neuman
ZD – that is a good point, but that didn’t seem to be what GAW was saying.
Also, the developers quoted R’ Aaron Kotler and not the Roshei Yeshivas. So while it’s probable that he asked the Roshei Yeshiva, l’maaseh they were not the ones being quoted.
Also, the developers quoted R’ Aaron Kotler and not the Roshei Yeshivas. So while it’s probable that he asked the Roshei Yeshiva, l’maaseh they were not the ones being quoted.
Because they know who the real “Head” of the Yeshiva is.
Joe – Someone who was practically bankrupt, which is why they begged Rav Aaron to come in and save Lakewood, which he did. He took the Achrayus, now it is his Yeshiva.
“He took the Achrayus, now it is his Yeshiva. “
So GAW, according to you, that means that he gets to decide now what masechta they are learning each zman, which talmidim get accepted, who gets to head a new chabura, who should give shiur or be mashgiach, is responsible for the spiritual growth of 6000 talmidim and after 120, his son(s) replace the current Roshei Yeshiva?
If the answer to the all of the above is yes, then he is Rosh Yeshiva. If not, he is CEO.
So GAW, according to you, that means that he gets to decide now what masechta they are learning each zman, which talmidim get accepted, who gets to head a new chabura, who should give shiur or be mashgiach, is responsible for the spiritual growth of 6000 talmidim and after 120, his son(s) replace the current Roshei Yeshiva?
Some things are more financial in that list than others
Chosing who gets accepted (and getting the Stipend), Who gets paid for Shiurim or Mashgiach (its a paid position) are influenced by the financial side
No way I can disagree with your last sentence, naftali18, as you quoted the Mishna in Avos.
“Im ein derech eretz – ein Torah”
A person has to first repair his Middos, then he can acquire Torah.
This is a valuable limmud for all of us.
Also an interesting limmud in light of this discussion.
WinnieThePooh – You think in the real world the head of the company makes any of these decisions? You think that the Rosh Yeshiva in a yeshiva where he is in charge decides on each bochur accepted and how much they pay?
He sets out his strategy and has others (a menahel, Moshgiach, etc.) fulfill his vision.
P.S. I doubt anyone there is “responsible for the spiritual growth of 6000 talmidim”. Perhaps Rav Salomon, but it is well known that there is a lack of Hadracha for Bochrim in BMG. And after 120, the Kotler Family will decide as a whole who will be the next titular Roshei Yeshiva. I can’t speak for who will be the power/head in the family at that time.
Unfortunately, despite all efforts to the contrary, many of the not so favorable features and values of the outside world have penetrated our ihr haTorah.
As an area that is “in town” what did you expect? The only question is now that your town is over run by materialism, what do you plan on doing about it? Maybe sell (property values are up) and move somewhere more to your liking?
Some in Lakewood, Jackson and Toms River would call it “just deserts”. 🙁
Can you prove this?
Naftali18 – +1 million!
Especially for this line:
“(And btw the Roshei Yeshiva knew nothing about this until yesterday!”
If that statement is true,
Everyone who assumed that the Roshei Yeshiva knew about it, and gave their approval and that the lady knew that the Roshei Yeshiva knew about it was completely oiver on being chosheid b’ksheirim, motzi shem ra and embarrassing someone publicly!!
If that is trueYou owe her a tremendous apology and a lot of brachos!
disclaimer added by mod to avoid motzi shem ra on those who assumed they knew, just in case this isn’t true since we have no real evidence at this point
You have to smile at the irony. When the exact same scenario is taking place in Ramapo ( except there it is long time residents protesting that profusion of yeshivas and trailers on lreviquiet streets ) we tell them to suck it up and accept change.
Please explain the irony, and how you are considering residential and commercial properties to be exactly the same.
Mod, true, nobody here knows for sure who knew what when, but don’t we need to be dan l’kaf z’chus and not accuse anybody (particularly talmidei chachomim) of wrongdoing based on speculation?
This question goes to gavra (“Can you prove this?”) and others as well.
When accusing someone of wrongdoing, the burden is on the accuser, and even if proven, might still be assur because of LH.
Agreed, that wasn’t my point. And I think based on the situation and the impact of such a statement it is fair to ask for a source without any intent of being accusatory. Perhaps the source is wanted so that people hoping it isn’t true can know so for certain.
I think a statement like that can potentially bring more animosity to those r”l accusing the gedolim and a source could stop naysayers in their tracks. We need to be dan lkaf zchus that not all questions are for the wrong intent.
naftali18: You wrote “(And btw the Roshei Yeshiva knew nothing about this until yesterday!) ”
knew nothing about what? The lady and her complaints or the new mall? I find that difficult to believe on both counts when a member of the BMG office (Yaakov Applegrad) is seen in the video responding to the lady. Would he be attending the meeting if they didn’t know about it?
In addition, I am not sure when this “meeting” took place as a major Lakewood figure is seen in the video and at the time the video was released he was in EY.
Its is possible other family members did not know
In any major operation you delegate authority and do not micromanage things
Aharon Kotler runs the financial side and Rav malkiel Kotler and Rev Neuman run the religious side and they trust each other enough not to interfere in the others running of the business
Mod, true, nobody here knows for sure who knew what when, but don’t we need to be dan l’kaf z’chus and not accuse anybody (particularly talmidei chachomim) of wrongdoing based on speculation?
This question goes to gavra (“Can you prove this?”) and others as well.
Honestly, it doesn’t make too much of a difference to me whether the titular Roshei Yeshiva knew about it or not. The Kotler family approved.
I personally don’t see the development as “wrongdoing”, and neither should you. The requirement of being Dan L’Kaf Zechus applies to HaGaon Rav Aaron Kotler as well as his brother Rosh Yeshiva Rav Malikel. The Yeshiva needs to support itself, and this is one way of doing so. If this woman wants to avoid materialism, she can leave Lakewood, just like all those who left to avoid the overcrowding and traffic.
P.S. If it is true that the titular Roshei Yeshiva did not know about this, it goes to prove my point that they are not involved in running or taking care of the yeshiva. And yes, those running the Yeshiva are (if you hold of Lakewood) the Gedolim of our time, whether they hold the title “Rosh Yeshiva” or “CEO”.
I’m not taking sides as to whether a mall could or should be built or not.
Rav Feivel Cohen is on record as saying that a beis din should decide.
I’m just saying that all sorts of assumptions, with negative connotations, are being made with no evidence.
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