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I always ask you and you never respond. I could have asked either side, it just happened to be Mammele.
Also, is bullying by one’s peers categorized as abuse? And again, how it’s handled by teachers matters greatly.
ZD, most kids don’t want to learn Gemara, or anything else for that matter. They’d rather be playing.
So, no, that us not by definition abuse.
Whether or not they’re being abused would depend on how they’re being forced, not if they’re being forced.
In other subjects if you dont like them you can take something else
Not everyone likes math for example, if they dont like math there is a minmum to take and then you take something else. However with learning not only are people who dislike it forced to do it, they are many times forced to do more
It doesnt work, rather than have somone learn 8 hours a day, we can find other things that they are good at that can help the community.
A boy who cannot learn, but can do carpentry is labeled a Nebbuch
“Someone being forced to learn Gemorah against their will? Meaning that they dislike learning and are forced to learn anyway”
What about someone who does not like math, or social studies, or school in general. Is sending them to school considered abuse?
“In other subjects if you dont like them you can take something else”
That’s not true. There are many classes that are not electives and there are many schools that do not offer electives.
And your supposition would not apply to girls, and I don’t see that there is an appreciable difference between the number of boys going OTD vs Girls. Perhaps it is in the MO schools which make the girls learn gemorra?
“What about someone who does not like math, or social studies, or school in general. Is sending them to school considered abuse?”
In fact, sending such people to school is not considered abuse. A better question would be whether sending them to school ought to be considered abuse. That would be a more difficult question to answer, but I lean toward something like, if you need to medicate otherwise functioning children so that they can sit through school, it ought to be considered abuse.
For girls there are other issues, like the founder of the Anti-kiruv place. She was told to get married young and have lots of kids, she didnt want to , because she wanted to go to college and become a lawyer. Because she was not given an opportunity to be frum and go to college, she left frumkeit, became frei and went to college anyway.
ZD, you’ll never hear the stories about the girls who would have gone OTD had they gone to college, and were saved because they didn’t.
Also, I’m not familiar with who you refer to, but most of the famous OTD people come from dysfunctional homes. I’ll bet she did too.
Actually I know of a Beis Yaakov girl who wanted to go to Med school, the school discouraged her from going , but she went anyway and today is frum married doctor with children.
ZD, I know of someone who jumped off of a bridge and survived. That doesn’t mean it was a good idea, or that anyone should follow suit.
Is making kids eat vegetables child abuse?
ZD, you’ll never hear the stories about the girls who would have gone OTD had they gone to college, and were saved because they didn’t.
How can you possibly know that someone would or would not have gone off the derech had they gone or not gone to college?
The Wolf
How can you possibly know that someone would or would not have gone off the derech had they gone or not gone to college?
You can’t. That’s why you’ll never hear the stories.
You can’t. That’s why you’ll never hear the stories.
I’m sorry. Apparently, I mis-read your statement.
:: Bowing head in shame ::
The Wolf
Is making kids eat vegetables child abuse?
Food can be used as abuse
Once I was at someone’s house for shabbos and the father ordered his son to eat chulent, the son refused saying he didnt want to be fleishig, the father forced the son to come over and eat a spoonful of chulent. One can see a similar circumstance with vegetables
ZD,
So you define abuse as making a child do anything that the child does not want to.
A parent insisting that a child eat a certain food is hardly abuse. (I am not saying that there cannot be abuse, depending on how a parent does it, ,but just making a child eat something is not abuse, even if ZD does not like cholent.
A belief that “making a child do anything that they do not want to do is abuse” is in and of itself a serious form of abuse and abandonment.
The father ordered him to eat it and may have even grabbed him (I dont remember, but he definatly forced him to eat it) and shoved the spoon in his mouth
Needless to say I never returned to that persons house for shabbos, It was the worst shabbos experience I ever had
I defiabuse as what went on in my yeshiva ketana. Rebbe’s would punch, slap and even kick us if they thought we weren’t paying attention. When the yeshiva would periodically fall months behind on salaries, the rebbe’s took their frustration out on us. This was in the late 1950’s. It did not engender a love of learning. There was also emotional abuse. Example:when I was nine , I went to my Rebbe after davening to say that I had concentrated real hard for half of the davening. His chizuk? He called me to the front of the class and ridiculed for davening hard for only half.
Somehow I did not go OTD, but I came close a few times until adulthood when other factors put yiddjzhkeit in a more favorable light. Many of my friends did go OTD. Contrary to some posters, sometimes it is the educators and parents ( who knew about the beatings but assumed them to be justified ) and not the kids unhappiness or emotional instability. My parents were not bad people, they just assumed this was how it was supposed to be in yeshiva
The yeshiva high school I went to didn’t use physicL abuse but ridiculed and shamed students if they didn’t like the questions that were asked
MAJOR CORRECTION: My parents were NOT bad people. They never hit me and treated me and my siblings well, except when it came to yeshiva. My older sibling was molested in yeshiva and nobody believed her. She , as a result, went OTD
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