Ladies First – Is it respectful or not?

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  • September 12, 2016 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1178598
    Joseph
    Participant

    Redleg: The Torah and Halacha disagree with you. The Shulchan Aruch says the opposite of you.

    September 12, 2016 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1178599
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe/Health – Redleg has an interesting point. We know the Halacha when you have two people drowning, that you save one (Kohen, Talmid Chacham, male, etc.) first. It is logical that the dynamic/halachic considerations changes when looking at a much broader scale (ex. Inquisition) or when there is no Vadai that the unsaved will die. If the child will Vadai die without being saved, and there is a 25% chance that the male will survive without help, should you save the male anyway?

    September 12, 2016 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1178600
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I just realized you wrote “putting aside halacha.” What does that mean? How can you make a decision w/o halacha?

    September 12, 2016 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1178601
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph: “Redleg: The Torah and Halacha disagree with you. The Shulchan Aruch says the opposite of you.”

    But Joseph, he is talking about goyim, so the reasons why men go first don’t apply. In terms of Pharoah, he’s talking about Yidden, but it’s not the same situation. The fact that when you have to choose between saving a man and saving a woman, you save the man (lol, I started to write woman – Freudian slip :)) first does not necessarily mean that if someone is trying to destroy Am Yisrael chas v’shalom, it would make more sense to destroy the boys. They are two different things and the reasoning in each case would be different.

    September 12, 2016 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1178602
    Person1
    Member

    Isn’t there a midrash saying they killled the boys to prevent Moshe being born? If so it’s not really relevant.

    Joseph what’s the correct answer about the Titanic? I’m curious.

    September 12, 2016 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1178603
    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra, if there’s no Vadai that the unsaved will die, why deviate from the halacha as given in the Gemora and S”A? Regarding the percentage, if it is less than 51% likelihood of surviving, I surely see no reason to take that into account to deviate from the standard halacha. Arguably, anything less than 100% should leave the standard halacha in effect.

    lilmod, I understood Redleg to mean he makes no distinction between yidden and goyim. If he’s only referring to goyim then my comment to him is possibly inapplicable.

    Person1, see the Mishnah in Horios 3:7, the Rambam on the Mishna, Beis Yosef YD 251 and S”A YD 252:8.

    September 12, 2016 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1178604
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1 – I suppose the point is that since they were not successful in killing Moshe Rabeinu, they would have been better off killing the girls. Or alternatively, that even if they could have killed Moshe Rabeinu, they would have harmed Am Yisrael more by killing the girls than by killing Moshe Rabeinu. (I think my first explanation is probably better.)

    September 12, 2016 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1178605
    Person1
    Member

    Joseph didn’t you say halacha aside??

    September 12, 2016 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1178606
    Joseph
    Participant

    Person1, oh, halacha aside on the Titanic; I think without halacha there would be no priority given anyone among goyim. Btw, the law in both the US and Britain as well as the law at sea, both at the time of the Titanic disaster as well as now, provides no gender based preferences in rescue efforts.

    September 12, 2016 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1178607
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joe, you still didn’t respond to my above post (maybe you didn’t see it):

    “Joseph – I have no idea. Are there halachos about it? There were some Yidden on the ship, so halachically the Jewish men should go first and then the Jewish women and then the Goyim. Beyond that, I have no idea.

    I would guess that there might be halachos of darchei shalom in such a situation. But I have no idea. Do you know what the halacha is? And what exactly is your point???????”

    September 12, 2016 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1178608
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, I was assuming the Titanic to be an all-gentile ship. So I was looking for an answer along the lines I just gave to Person1 in my last comment. But I agree with you in your listed priority of yehudi zochor, yehudi nekeiva, nochri.

    September 12, 2016 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1178609
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    There were definitely some Jews on it – Nathan Strass’s brother and sister-in-law were on it and drowned.

    But you didn’t answer the question – what was your point? You asked me the question because you were clearly trying to make some point – what was it?

    September 12, 2016 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1178610
    a zid
    Participant

    who cares

    September 12, 2016 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1178611
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joe, I thought about what I would do if there were no Yidden there:

    1. I would ask a sheilah if possible.

    2. If I had no one to ask and had to “posken” for myself, then, if I thought it would be a chillul Hashem otherwise, I would save children and women first (since halachically as far as I know, there is no difference by goyim)

    But, I still want to know: what point are you trying to make?

    September 12, 2016 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1178612
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I just thought of something – I wonder if halachically one would be required to give priority to those goyim that keep 7 Mitzvos benei Noach (if he knows)? If so, and if I didn’t know the people, I would guess that women are more likely to keep the 7 Mitzvos benei Noach since women tend to be more religious than men. Also, they are less likely to be terrorists or murderers, so far all those reasons, I would probably go with the women.

    Also, tznius-wise for myself, it would be better to save the women.

    So I now have a total of 4 reasons to give priority to the women:

    1. Kiddush Hasshem. 2. Tznius. 3. 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach. 4. they are less likely to murder Yidden

    September 12, 2016 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1178613
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Health: “#2 Wife!”

    What do you mean by that? You mean that the wife should be secondary?

    September 13, 2016 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1178614
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m not sure there were any jews on the rescue ship’s that night. The crew of those board were not consulting the shulchan aruch for guidance. Neither was the non jewish crew of the titanic as they led women and children into the lifeboats ahead of any men, jewish or otherwise, who may have been there. The simanim in SA cited are for jews who are trying to save jews and are not relevant to the non jewish crew of the titanic or Carpathian.

    September 13, 2016 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1178615
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Tznius isn’t mentioned in the SA as a criterion to evaluate if faced with a choice who to save, why are you makingvanbissuecthe SA does not.

    September 13, 2016 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1178616
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    apushatayid: “Tznius isn’t mentioned in the SA as a criterion to evaluate if faced with a choice who to save, why are you makingvanbissuecthe SA does not.”

    Joe was presenting me with a hypothetical situation in which I have a decision to make. If I knew of any halachos that tell me who to save, I would go by that obviously. Since I don’t know of any, I have to make my own decision. I have to choose to either save the men or the women. As a girl, I would be more comfortable saving the women. What issue do you have with that? Since I have to make a choice between the men and the women (as the case was presented to me), why shouldn’t I choose the women for tznius reasons?

    September 13, 2016 12:53 am at 12:53 am #1178617
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I’m not sure there were any jews on the rescue ship’s that night.”

    As I mentioned, Nathan Strauss’s brother and sister-in-law were on the Titatic. However, they were not rescued. Nathan Strauss would have been there as well, but he was saved as a result of the fact that he stayed in EY to try to find a way to help the Yidden living there.

    I think there is a Chanoch Teller story revolving around a Jewish woman who was rescued, and her baby somehow got kidnapped in the process (but she managed to rescue him from his kidnapper in the end).

    In any case, Joe was trying to make a hypothetical situation to make some kind of a point – I’m still not sure what it was though.

    September 13, 2016 1:08 am at 1:08 am #1178619
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Behold – the point he had planned on making all along…

    September 13, 2016 1:15 am at 1:15 am #1178621
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    still waiting with bated breath (for the past 21 hours) to find out what your point is…

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