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Yes I meant sparkly and Joseph because they have quite polarized worldviews.
I believe sparkly switched worldviews in the last few days from hard left to hard right.
I’m just traditional.
I’m Orthodox.
Ahh, so you do believe in the Patriarchy!
But you said you’re Orthodox. The Orthodox only have a Patriarch…
I did. I think the principles you make are good. Though your nomenclature are disagreeable. You make very good points demonstrating the non-equality between Kohanim and Yisroelim, men and women, etc. You also saliently point out we are victims to the influences of the Western culture that we unfortunately live amidst.
The idea that there is something wrong with all men not being equal, is a western concoction that has no basis in our Mesorah. So to challenge that the Rambam doesn’t say we aren’t equal is looking at it backwards. The Rambam also doesn’t say we aren’t apes. That doesn’t mean we should consider ourselves to share a common ancestor with apes unless proven otherwise. Similarly there is no valid reason to assume equality. The way you’ve reinterpreted the term equality to fit the end result you wished to produce doesn’t fit how the term is commonly used in the world, as you’ve conceded. Nor is the term, as you’ve described it, the proper terminology to define ourselves within Judaism.
In any event, the inequalities you’ve pointed out between men and women, and Kohanim and Yisroelim, would be found very objectionable by contemporary societies insistence on the equality of all people.
I responded to that almost a week ago:
LU -“whoa.. I guess I was wrong.. you really are extreme!”
When it comes to equality between men & women, this is one of the few times we’re in agreement (Me & Joe)!
lilmod, I would seriously question the accuracy of your contention that their psak was substantially based on a general survey. I would strongly submit it was not. Furthermore, use of such a medium for such a purpose is clearly out of line with mainstream psak. I would suggest you check the accuracy of your source on this point.
The societal normative practice in how it pertains to halacha and psak is determined specifically on how Jewish society acts and not on general secular/non-Jewish society. If Jewish society happens to act similarly to its surrounding society, whether or not that is because they picked up a custom or practice due to surrounding society’s influence, then by all means that is the determining factor. But it is certainly not a given that Torah Jews habits are in sync with that of its surrounding neighbors.
BTW, there are still poskim in America who rule hamotzi only on two or more slices, in accordance with Rav Moshe. Rav Moshe’s point about it being a quantity to constitute a meal could refer to a dinner – which is a full meal (and which one slice of pizza doesn’t make a dinner), and not lunch, which in America is a light meal.
It has to do with the Yidden not the non-Yidden.
LU -“Rav Moshe’s point was that pizza is often eaten as a snack and therefore it’s pas haba b’kisnin and that’s why one slice is mezonos.”
Where does R’ Moshe say that?!?
Btw, I read S’A and pizza would be “pas haba b’kisnin” no matter what anybody says!
You just proved again why women should stick to Kitzur S’A and not more!
“I saw the psak from Rav Forchsheimer and Rav Bodner and I asked Rav Bodner about it.”
R’ Bodner isn’t known as a Poisek in Lakewood!
He did write books.
Joseph what I heard in the yeshiva was that everything, or almost everything has value. Some “western concoctions” are very reasonable. It’s just that they don’t stand above everything else.
For example it IS reasonable that women should get equal pay as men. It IS reasonable that a woman can turn to the law if she is sexually harrased. It IS reasonable that people should get equal oppurtunities regardless of their skin colour.
The reason western ideas have taken such an hold on our minds is because they actually make sense to us, not because we were brainwashed.
We should not put the values of equalitiy and human rights above everything else, but we also shiuldn’t ignore them just because they are the only things western sociaty cares about.
Person1: Western culture, which changes as fast as the seasons, is never better than Jewish culture. Not in any way, not in any how. Non-Jewish culture is to be avoided like the plague. The reason some folks become enamored by them is due to golus and the unfortunate daily indoctrination of this foreign culture.
As limod ably pointed out in the previous page, Jewish law and culture strongly disagree with Western notions of equality. Regarding your first example, women should ideally be homemakers and not working – that is the man’s job.
lilmod, nowhere have you indicated that Rav Bodner advised you that the decisive factor in the psak was the survey. You appear to have come to that understanding (specifically the reason for the psak being the survey) from other sources. Various rabbonim have ruled to wash on pizza for various reasons. And Rav Bodner and Rav Forchsheimer may have ruled to wash because they believe that it is customarily only eaten in America as part of a meal. But that doesn’t mean they concluded that due to this survey you referenced. They may have made that evaluation primarily based on other factors they’ve assessed.
Furthermore, even if it was the survey that was the decisive factor in their ruling, the use of that for this purpose is not typical methodology of mainstream psak halacha among most poskim. It would be quite unusual, in fact. It goes against the grain amongst poskim, who would use only how the food is eaten among Yidden.
And as I mentioned earlier, there are poskim in America that still rule today like Rav Moshe, that one need not wash hamotzi when eating less than two slices.
LU and Joseph when did I ever say we should take our values from western sociaty? I said that certain values of western sociaty make sense. I an not sure which part of my post you disagree with. Please clearify.
Don’t worry, I’ve been called worse. (Just ask Health.)
If a couple of poseks use a methodology that is very atypical in psak halacha and goes against the grain, it doesn’t prove anything other than their methodology was a daas yochid that lacks widespread acceptance among the poskim. So it in no way proves we care what the goyim do in this sense. You can find non-accepted psaks through out history (from choshuve poskim), even some that go completely the opposite of what is the near universal accepted psakim, that were never accepted among the consensus of poskim.
Person1 – just as an alternate opinion, I thought your point was pretty clear.
LU -“Health, thank you for proving my point (that you and Joseph have very different attitudes) with your last post!”
I guess me and you are not a Shidduch!
But Joe wants #2!
I didn’t mean it was a daas yochid to rule that one must wash on even one slice. Many poskim ruled as such long before this survey. And many people have washed for one slice long before this psak. See:
I meant the methodology itself of looking at general non-Jewish society for this purpose is unusual and apparently daas yochid, assuming you’re correct in relating that the survey was the decisive factor in the psak. Most poskim wouldn’t accept considering non-Jewish society in determining the psak for this purpose.
Various other poskim ruled it mandatory to wash on one slice long before this survey for reasons other than what the goyim do.
lilmod, as you know, on the Titanic they prioritized saving women before men. Putting aside the halachic requirement to save men first, as after all the Titanic wasn’t a Jewish ship or subject to halacha, if you had any say in prioritizing the saving of lives on the ship, how would you prioritize? Would you take gender into account, and if so in what way?
Syag Lchochma it’s really good to hear.
LU since I’ve been misunderstood on several posts and by several people it’s only fair to admit I probably could phrase myself more clearly. I do find it a bit tiresome to make the disclaimer “I’m not an apykoires” every time I write a post. But I can see how some of the things I said could be misunderstood. Anyhow Thanks for being nice and for apologizing.
LU -“#2 of what? What in the world are you talking about?”
#2 Wife!
LU -“but I think the psak was very widely accepted in Lakewood.”
I didn’t accept it and I never will! I follow the S’A. But you never learnt S’A because you only look at English Seforim!
And btw, a lot of Chumros come out also to Kulos!
You’re washing and benching on one slice of pizza, but maybe it’s a Brocha that’s not needed?!?
Joey, with regard to the Titanic and similar situations, “Women and children first” makes good. biologic sense. Women and children, after all, represent the continuation of the (human) race. Men on the other hand, are expendable as one man can have many wives. Incidentally, that’s where Pharaoh messed up. If he wanted to destroy Klal Yisroel, he should have been goizer on the daughters.
The question that opened this thread was not, opening doors for women, is it a torah or western ideal. The question was, is it respectful or not to women. IF it is not a torah ideal, does it make it forbidden and if it is not forbidden , (and here is the crux of the question) do you believe it is respectful to women? not every western practice is forbidden simply because it is a western ideal. I would posit, “women and children first” is more a violation of the torahs ideal of “chayecha kodem” then holding open a door for a female in a specific context.
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