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I still don’t see how going first and holding open a door any different than holding a door while she goes first
It’s just as menchlich to do it that way
Lilmod,
This is where I said it myself (not sure who said it first but it doesn’t matter) I actually said it in reply to you!
Rav Frand also added that Rav Dovid (I’m not sure who that is, but the guys present probably know) would tell bochurim when they were dating to hold open the door for the girl even though this would entail walking behind her. (although personally, I don’t see why this has to be the case. Why can’t she walk through the doorway and then move to the side?, but in any case, that seemed to be his assumption)
Or why can’t he go first and hold it open for her
Several times I asked for a logical explanation why anyone might think that it is more appropriate that the guy specifically open the door for the girl rather than the girl specifically open the door for the guy. After much kvetching and handwringing, being unable to give a logical explanation, we were offered a tongue-twister of trying to squeeze out of Keddushin 2B that since the norm is men try to woo women in marriage rather than vice versa, therefore it bridges that men should open the door for her. That’s quite a stretch but that was the best that anyone came up with.
But I have much better evidence that the woman should open the door for the man than what was offered for the other way. We learn in halacha (Rambam Hilchos Ishus 15:20) that “Our Sages have commanded that the woman honor her husband to an extreme degree and the fear of him should be on her and she should do all her deeds according to what he says and he should be in her eyes as a ruler or king. She should orient her activities according to that which he desires and stay away from that which he hates.” Rambam also lists the various obligations wives have for their husband (pours his drinks, washes his hands, makes the bed and serves him). Rashi in Menachos 43b (during the discussion of shelo asani isha) goes so far in comparison to say that “the wife is also a slave to her husband as a slave is to his master.”
Clearly as a wife must treat and fear her husband as her King and ruler and do everything he desires and serve him, should be doing the very minimal serving of opening the door for him.
You’re again conflating gentile customs with Jews. You are relating non-Jewish customs (if it is even a custom by them, as you claim), not Jewish ones.
The Rambam says, in general, that a wife “serves him” and that Chazal command that she “honor her husband to an extreme degree and the fear of him should be on her and she should do all her deeds according to what he says and he should be in her eyes as a ruler or king.” Also see the Rashi I quoted above.
the problem is that the man is always supposed to be in front since he is not allowed to walk behind his wife, so he ends up being the one to hold the door open for her.
Not if the door is pulled out to open. If he goes in first then she will be holding the door open for him.
or pour their drinks for that matter?
In most families I know the wife serves the food and drinks as well as makes the beds.
The goyim also have a custom of men shaking women’s hands when offered. And the goyish custom is for women to dress not tznius when making a party. We don’t follow their customs as a rule, even if it doesn’t violate a specific halacha. And when it does violate halacha, such as walking behind women, we surely don’t pick up gentile customs.
None of your proofs to support the position of men specifically opening the door for women or for women to go before men are as strong as the proofs I brought above from Chazal, Rashi and Rambam (citing Chazal) l’halacha to support the opposite notion.
??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???. ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????. ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ???????. ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????:
How do you interpret treating him as a king and ruler?
Rav Shlomo Zalman began his letter writing it for a “bshas hadchak”.
Nowhere does your proof show we adopt goyish customs. Including the pizza example. It is based on Jewish behavior not gentile behavior.
And walking behind women is a violation of halacha.
Joseph it’s clear to me that the rambam didn’t c”v mean to say that a wife should treat her husband like a master in her. -actions-. Do you think he was trying to fix men up with lifelong slaves? That makes me shudder!
What he meant was that this is the way that a wife should treat her husband in her heart! That she should respect and admire him to such extent that he’ll be a like a king in her eyes.
If a wife feel that way towards her husband in her heart, I’d imagine serving him drinks might be one way she’d express that feeling.
But if a wife is -required- to serve her husband drinks, and is not doing so as a result of her admiration of him, the only thing she’ll be thinking is “I’d like to spill this on his head”. And that’s the only thing you might achieve from asking woman to serve drinks and open doors.
Serving drinks is not the same as pouring drinks. I have never seen a wife pour her husband’s drinks for him.
Eees and I pour drinks for each other all the time.
We also hold the door open for each other all the time.
????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???
We definitely don’t do this. Our marriage is one of equals, not master and servant or boss and underling and certainly not king and subject.
If you want to say that this makes our marriage not a “Torah marriage,” then fine, that’s your opinion, but after 25 years, we’re not changing.
The Wolf
Joe:
1: That is only once they are married.
2: The same Rambam says (as LuL points out)
??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????, ?????? ?????; ??? ?? ?? ????, ???? ?????? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ???? ????; ????? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ????.
Simply put, they should both offer. He should still be Mechabed her more than she him (Yoser), so he ends up holding the door.
I brought a ton of sources that proved my position in a very strong way. So strong, in fact, that the mods in their infinite wisdom decided it was too strong for print. (Probably for the same reason you [lilmod]
The problem today is that many people feel we need to water down and hush-hush Torah sources on gender relations due to the Western world changes in recent decades on this topic. I disagree with this kind of hush-hushing of Torah sources (as well as disagree with replacing Torah described relationships with modern Western type relationships).
Your assumption that anyone here feels a need to water down and hush-hush Torah sources is wrong and offensive. Your inability to see the whole picture should not be mistaken for the conclusions you contrive through your own short sightedness. When I read your posts as they come in I am often left wondering, “What is his point?” and the answer to that question often drives the decision to approve or not approve.
Rav Avigdor Miller (Awake My Glory): There cannot be two kings. The marriage relationship is two-fold. 1) The wife is submissive. This is not only Jewish but natural. There can be no harmony when there are two commanders. Without this indispensable condition, the home is disordered. “Arrogance is unbecoming a woman” – Megillah 14B. For a man it is not an ornament, but for a woman it is as if she wore a mustache. 2) The second, but equally essential foundation: a man must always demonstrate respect for his wife. This is “the way of Jewish men that… honor and support their wives in truth” as stated in the Jewish marriage contract. “He honors her more than his own body” – Yevamos 62B, Bava Metzia 59A. He is the Captain, but she is the First Mate whose counsel is respected. She cannot be made a doormat, she need not beg for money, she deserves some assistance in the house chores, and the husband sides with her against his kin. He must express frequent appreciation and give words of encouragement, and he should remember his wife from time to time with gifts, big or little. Husband and wife should always say “Please” and “Thank You” and never forget to be always polite to each other.
lilmod: “maybe she should open the door for him, but it has to come from her, and that will only happen if he is focused on his obligations to her and not his to her.”
Rambam: “????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???”
GAW: Thank you for bringing the Rambam. I don’t know how to type in hebrew on this computer, so I had to rely on my on-the-spot translation.
Copy and paste from Mechon Mamre.
Now you can do it as well 🙂
Mod in bold, I disagree with you. Is it okay to disagree with a mod? 😉
I would submit that, in fact, you’re being short-sighted in finding it problematic to approve the earlier posts. Even if you failed to understand the point, it wasn’t necessary to censor the sources.
[Now buckling my seat-belt for impact.]
I did not fail to understand the point
You wrote: “I am often left wondering, “What is his point?””
I was not implying that I had no answer
Joseph – I see Rabbi Miller as saying exactly what I said earlier.
The husband is in charge, but he is mechuyav to defer to his wife. That is why the husband always gets the last words:
“Yes Dear”.
The husband is in charge, but he is mechuyav to defer to his wife.
That doesn’t conform to Rav Miller’s “There cannot be two kings… The wife is submissive… There can be no harmony when there are two commanders…”
Rav Avigdor Miller (Awake My Glory): There cannot be two kings. The marriage relationship is two-fold. 1) The wife is submissive. This is not only Jewish but natural. There can be no harmony when there are two commanders. Without this indispensable condition, the home is disordered.
I do not find this to be true.
First of all, I find it strange that anyone would compare a marriage to a military formation. Of course, in the military there must be one person in charge. But a marriage is not a military brigade, nor is it a kingdom to be ruled. It’s a partnership – and like all partnerships, it has to be run according to the personalities and skills of the partners. If the partnership works with one dominant person and one submissive — then all the more power to them. But saying that it is impossible to work with two people who have equal say in the affairs of the marriage is downright wrong, as there are plenty of people today who have marriages where they work together — not as king and servant or master and servant.
“Arrogance is unbecoming a woman” – Megillah 14B. For a man it is not an ornament, but for a woman it is as if she wore a mustache.
I find arrogance to be offensive on anyone — man or woman. I certainly don’t find it to be an “ornament.”
The Wolf
I find arrogance to be offensive on anyone — man or woman. I certainly don’t find it to be an “ornament.”
My apologies. I clearly missed the word “not” in the original quote from Rabbi Miller.
The Wolf
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