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LU, it just occurred to me that walking in street is no longer a problem. Everyone walks around now with their face buried in a smartphone , not looking where they are going
Your point being, lesschum?
That shmiras einayim is now achieved by burying one’s face in a smartphone?
Something is wrong with this picture.
Literally.
It was a joke
LU, I was in Manhattan recently and I couldn’t believe the number of people crossing streets, walking on stairs while staring at phones tablets.
A city in Germany installed traffic lights in the sidewalk to combat distracted walking. The city experienced a number distracted pedestrians walking into traffic.
LU, I was in Manhattan recently and I couldn’t believe the number of people crossing streets, walking on stairs while staring at phones tablets.
I think Manhattan has a more pressurized lifestyle than most of us are used to, and those people feel the need to be “on the clock” every waking minute. I imagine most areas (perhaps London & Tokyo are similar) are not like that.
Yes.
Let me ask the question this way: When a girl walks in front of a Frum boy, is she doing something similar to what the lady in your hypothetical case is doing if she KNOWS that there are men who will be deliberately watching her?
Answer is NO!!!
According to several etiquette sites the “custom” for men to hold open doors for women was a matter of practicality. Women wore corsets and very wide skirts, opening doors wasbt easy. The reason may have changed but the custom seems to have remained.
So let’s leave the Western customs for the Christians while we’ll stick to the Jewish ones.
Btw, apy, did you yet answer the question I posed to you on the previous page for “a logical explanation why one way is better than the other” (i.e. men going first versus women going first – or men opening the door for women over women opening the door for men)?
limud, let’s even put dating aside, since your (and gaw’s) response to the question I posed to apy related to allowing women first on dates. Let me ask you about in general.
Do you have a logical explanation for why one way is better than the other, i.e. going first or who opens the door for the other, in life in general? IOW, when you pass a stranger of the opposite gender, do you think the gender should play a role as to who goes first or who opens the door?
Joseph, you of all people should know that customs have no basis in logic. There minhagim we continue when the original reason is gone .Why should door opening be any different? One wH of opening the door is no better than the other, it’s simply become a custom.
lilmud, do you see any logical explanation that you can relate as to why one gender should have precedence in going first or having the door opened for them in non-dating situations?
LU, my point was that whether Jewish or not, the reasons why customs continue beyond the original reason have no logic.
Joseph, we do live in a Western country. We’re citizens not just when it comes to accepting Medicaid , Section 8, bussing and other government benefits. It also means respecting customs involving courtesy
lilmod, do you think that, in a non-dating situation, one gender should have precedence in going first or having the door opened for them? If so, which gender and why?
Reb Joseph. I’m not advocating one way over another. I’m merely saying what society claims is proper behavior whether a logical reason, a stupid reason or no reason at all exists. Therefore, I do not feel compelled or otherwise obligated in any way to answer your question.
apy, Jewish society or gentile society?
Joseph, do you see any logical explanation for why girls should be the ones making the potato kugel or why only women should be helping in the kitchen
The kitchen is part of women’s domestic role. The husband can help.
There are much bigger issues to consider in life than who goes through the door first. Honestly you can play chess to decide who does. Or whoever is taller goes first. No one cares.
What I’m saying is we should distinguish tafel from ikar.
Almost every action has some implications. I think we should save our energy for decisions that have greater impact than givingnot giving precedence to the other gender (I’m talking about the general idea of ladies first and not walking behind women which is halacha matter)
I doubt this subject would even come up, if it didn’t involve the whole “us vs goyim” battle which seems to excite people for some reason.
Very funny (: I wasn’t talking about the energy spent on arguing here, but about the energy spent on deciding whether to go before a lady and acting upon your decision. I suppose I came across as condescending. Sorry for that.
Let me go back to limud now.
lilmod, I’m not sure that I agree with CA’s comment, so I can’t explain it to you.
Does shlugged up means beaten in an argument?
I guess nobody likes that but if he turns you down for this I doubt it’s such a big loss.
You’ve probably heard arguments to both sides so many times before… it’s really hard to say anything original.
I just don’t think anyone knows what most boysgirls want. In particular the idea that women should not look too smart seems strange to me since there are many intelligent girls out there.
Lilmod, I dont think it has anything to do with intelligence. As I see it, a man has likely spent many years learning intensely and expects to be the one who is more text based in the relationship (as he has been trained). In that scenario, I can see where it might be off putting for a person (who he has been told is less knowledgeable in text based learning), to start responding with sources from Gemorah and Meforshim and one-upping him on the things he expects to be the stronger one on. It’s not about intelligent or not, just a matter of using the intelligence in a way that won’t ruin everything he’s known about himself until that point.
Joseph., your concept of responsibility domestic chores went the way of the dodo bird when kollel wives ( being the breadwinner ) and wives of working men ( yeshiva tuition )
have to work.
I heard years ago from someone I trust completely that he observed Rav Moshe hold the door for women.
How sad is it that we lack common sense sometimes and replace long complicated halachic analysis for common sense. How sad is it that we live in a world where being a decent human has been replaced with “salad and halacha” “holding the door open for women and halacha” “pokemon and halacha” “riding the bus and halacha” “taking your kids to the park and halacha”. you get the point.
That bubbe maaisa about Rav Moshe is a canard. Rav Moshe didn’t open doors for women more than he would open doors for men.
lilmod: yes and no. the shulchan aruch covers what shoe should be put on first and other minute details but never asks you to put your brain and common sense away. quite the opposite is true.
joseph: good point but i still accept the eidus.
Breakdown -“joseph: good point but i still accept the eidus.”
What’s a good point? And what Eidus?
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