Lack of kovid hatorah.

So @ubiquitin, since we are literally the only two people commenting on this thread, how are things by you?

How do we get from a loack of kovod hatorah to braindeath?

“How do we get from a loack of kovod hatorah to braindeath?”

conversations often switch. Though this one isnt really about brain death. A poster got me excited about the existence of a psak, allegedly “famous,” by R’ Moshe “against using brain death to determine death”
Unfortunalty, it turns out he was lying, and no such psak exists famous or otherwise.
At least not by R’ Moshe Feinstein (which I guess he could claim he never meant, he can always claim he meant R’ Moshe Sherer, or R’ Moshe Honigkvetcher, and if anyone mistakenly assumed he meant R’ Moshe Feinstein, well we need better reading comprehension)

Well it is a good headline “Lack of Kovod HaTorah leads to Brain death.”

YW29: It’s agreed that a) it was submitted and b) it was an official letter from Agudas Yisroel by Rav Moshe Sherrer zt’l to Tendler. If not for the length, why else wasn’t it posted?

n0m: How are you applying kovod HaTorah to a letter authored by the head of Agudas Yisroel, one of Klal Yisroel’s most important organizations, with the full backing and agreement of the Gedolei HaTorah on the Agudah’s Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah?

n0mesora

your understanding of the issue is incorrect.
Not one of your follow up sentences is correct.

Nomesora

Your understanding is not at all accurate.
Brain death is accepted as death in all 50 states (though a few allow for a religious exception) and is routinely used in declaring death.

Brain death refers to the lack of function of the brain stem. The brain stem controls certain biological functions including breathing . The heart functions independently of the brain, It has its own pacemaker. Thus a brain dead patient, by definition cannot breathe on his own. However he will have a normal heart beat.
Most poskim reject brain death as a definition of death, they hold as long as there is a heartbeat the patient is alive. A few accept brain death either because they view the brain as decapitated, or because if a person can’t breathe then they are dead (even if the heart is still beating).

There is some question as to what R’Moshe held. He wrote a few teshuvoas on the subject which sound like he supported brain death. There is one yeshiva that is more explicit, but some have scheduled the authenticity of this teshuva
His sons (R Dovid can be seen on YouTube supporting this) and son in law and grandchildren all say he held brain death is halachic death, but others disagree.

N0mesorah
The second half of your post sounds right, the first half is confusing.

“I understood that the heart could be functioning mechanically – not reflexively”

I am not sure what you mean by either of those terms. The heart can beat independently of the brain. In fact they have done studies where a heart placed in proper solution of glucose, potassium, with oxygen being pumped etc can keep on beating in the absence of any brain activitiy. This is becasue the signal for he heart to beat does not come from the brain, but rather from specialized cells in the heart itself, that “tell” the heart to beat. This is known as the pacemaker cells or the SA node. Of course the brain (and spinal cord) do send signals to the heart to speed up or slow down as needed but in the absence of these signals ie even with complete severance of the brain and spinal cord from the body the heart will keep beating.
The lungs on the other hand are different. EACH breath is DIRECTLY controlled by the brain steam giving a steady signal: Breathe, Breathe, Breathe, etc. In the absence of the brain steam (or if the nerve that conducts this signal is damaged) the patient will stop breathing.
Again: His heart will still keep beating (assuming you provide a steady supply of oxygen obviously) becasue the heart’s signal to Beat, Beat, Beat…. does NOT come from the brain, it comes from the heart itself

“Assuming I didn’t, my point was that zero function of brain stem reflexes by itself could never be an actual way to determine death,”
Again, I’m not sure what you mean by “never be an actual way to determine death,” do you mean halachaicly? Most poskim do say that (for varied reasons), however some disagree. If you mean legally ALL states disagree with you.

“because if the major (heart or lungs) organs are working, that is proof of some brain activity.”
Again, no the heart can (and has) functioned completely perfectly in the absence of a brain.

“The possibility of having life without the major organs is zero, even with a functioning brain stem.”
I’m nost sure what you mean with this sentence. Patients are put on Heart bypasss machines daily for surgery etc. I believe all would consider them alive even though for a period their “major organs:” werent functioning (after R” Yechezkal Roth underwent cardiac surgery there was a rumpr that he was mekadesh his wife again but even if true, this is far from the standard view)

“Since the patient is not breathing, the only question is how to view the mechanical heart.”
Correcct.

“That is not a question of brain function, as the brain can function (albeit in a meaningless manner) without the heart or lungs.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “meaningless manner” I would think its very meaningfull that a person with an artificial heart and who is ventilated still has his own brain function. In fact according to those who reject brain death, I’m not clear on what basis he is alive There is also the problem of the sheep experiment.
Though IIf I understand your point correctly, I believe R’ Dovid Feinstein made this point when explaining his father’s postition According to R’ Moshe: The brain, in of itself, has no bearing on whether a person is alive or not. If he is breathing independently he is alive, if not not. (note: If a vent is helping him breathe he’d still be alive, if the vent is completely breathing for him then he isn’t) A brain dead patient BY DEFINITION is not breathing on his own your last statment is correct ” If there is medical brain death without apnea, than I am completely wrong.” There is no brain death without apnea, by defintiion. thus according to his teshuvos and family, R’ Moshe held a brain dead person is dead (becasue he isnt breathing not becasue of lack of brain activity per se)

Dear Ubiquitin,
I accidentally deleted my response. It is for the better. You write with much more clarity. My point is, since brain death will never be declared on a breathing patient, (Because if they can breath on their own that proves a functioning brain.) the question became inapplicable. (Except for those who think protecting lives only reply to the unborn and the dead.) I think i read somewhere, that the original question was reversed. That because of brain trauma one can be declared dead even though there is a possibility of the lungs still working on their own.

n0mesora

“My point is, since brain death will never be declared on a breathing patient, (Because if they can breath on their own that proves a functioning brain.) the question became inapplicable.”

Again I’m not sure what you mean. Your first sentence is correct. but not the seocnd People are declared dead via brain dead standard daily. It is not at all inapplicable. As part of the determination, the vent which is ventilating the non-breathing patient s shut off (after pre-oxygenating the patient) and they wait a bit to see if the patient breathes. If he does he is not declared dead. If he doesn’t breathe he is dead. At thsi point the vent is reconnected to potentially allow for organ donation

“That because of brain trauma one can be declared dead even though there is a possibility of the lungs still working on their own”

The lungs don’t “work on their own” each and every breath is directly controlled by the brain (technically brain stem). In the absence of a brain the patient doesnt breathe. Again, NOT becasue there is anything wrong with his lungs (this may have been what you meant) his lungs are perfectly fine (in fact these lungs can potentially be used for someone else by transplanting them). But he is not breathing because the brain isnt “telling” him to.
As a reminder the heart may still be beating, since unlike the lungs, the heart is not controlled by the brain.

So the question becomes what is the halachic status of a person with no brain function, who cannot breathe on his own, but whose heart is still beating .

Most poskim say since his heart is beating he is alive period.
R’ Moshe seems to say in his teshuvas (and his son R’ Dovid explicitly said he held this way) says this patient is not alive because he isnt breathing. R’ Ovadiah Yosef held this way as well
(other poskim held he is dead because it is considered as if he is decapitated which mishna in Ohelos says is dead but whtehr this accurately describes a brain dead patient is questionable)

In short, brain death with the lungs being able to breath on their own, does not exist.

Please excuse my writing comprehension.