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Answer me this, WIY, why are the names of donors called out during appeals in shul?
by the way just to clarify, when it comes to clothing (and you can trust me on this) you do indeed get what you pay for. a 40 dollar shirt is better than a 20, a 60 better than a 40, an 80 better than a 60, a 120 better than an 80 and so on. it really is true. so why if you have the means would you not want the quality? why if you can afford it should you walk around in a 60 dollar shirt of you can afford an 80 which is more comfortable and looks nicer? other than the possible offence it may cause to you of course…what standard would you set?
and all this garbage about labels…please. you would still have your contention without the labels. expensive clothing is easily discernible from cheap clothing. face it, you have character flaws, youre not satisfied with what you have and therefore you accuse teh wealth of “flaunting” because that in some wierd way makes you feel better about yourself. but once again, that is not their fault, it’s yours. what others have is none of your concern, and you cant possibly know why they dress teh way they do unless you are actually the person you are judging. so please…stop already…its so…lower class.
Bombmaniac:
I apologize if you took my words the wrong way. I never intended to say that all wealthy people act this way. That is a gross overstatement, something which I try to stay away from. On the other hand, there are enough people who act this way that makes it a problem.
Sacrilige:
Yes, I agree that these people have class. I don’t care if you spend crazy amounts of money on clothes, just don’t flaunt it by needing to show the label. The most expensive brand names actually do not have labels or symbols. This is because they are intended for the classy members of society who are “fortunate” enough to be able to afford them.
And about the shopping- I never claimed that I don’t own any brand names. But I never pay a lot of money for what I wear. If I can buy a sweater in Target for $30, or I could find one on sale in Macy’s or Lord and Taylor for $35, then yeah- I’m gonna go for the brand name. Show me one person who wouldn’t.
addicted
I thank you for making my point.
bombmaniac
You know what I have? How do you know how I dress? I agree that usually more expensive is better but it levels off at some point. There are certain top quality recognized brands that sell shirts for $80 a shirt. There are other brands that sell for $150, $200 and more. There is no real discernible quality between the $80 shirt and the $300 shirt. But some people want to say Im wearing a Kiton shirt…
I also think that its disgusting how certain young guys think that they have to wear everything thats either Hermes Burberry or Ferragamo. I was in a certain place recently and I kid you not almost every guy was wearing a Ferragamo belt. I was so turned off. Its just uch to me. Dont you get it? Everyone wants to show they can wear Ferragamo belts or shoes…its pathetic. Its not a matter of being stylish, its a matter of everyone knowing what Brand is holding up your pants, or keeping your feet covered.
“On the other hand, there are enough people who act this way that makes it a problem.”
please quit while you arent so far behind.
“Yes, I agree that these people have class. I don’t care if you spend crazy amounts of money on clothes, just don’t flaunt it by needing to show the label.”
of course you care or you would never have mentioned it.
“The most expensive brand names actually do not have labels or symbols. This is because they are intended for the classy members of society who are “fortunate” enough to be able to afford them.”
then you shouldn’t feel any animosity toward those who DO have labels, after all, they are too poor to afford the good stuff.
But I never pay a lot of money for what I wear. If I can buy a sweater in Target for $30, or I could find one on sale in Macy’s or Lord and Taylor for $35, then yeah- I’m gonna go for the brand name. Show me one person who wouldn’t.
people who dont have to worry about their finances. however that does not make them bad people or in fact flawed in any way. some people just like the finer things in life, and would purchase with or without the audience that you so dutifully provide.
a status symbol is indeed put on clothing to indicate one’s status as being able to afford better quality products, however just because the clothing designer was ill intentioned does not mean that the consumer is. please understand the difference.
for the record, i don’t care how you dress. you made an issue out of this, not me.
WIY why are you so concerned with the actions of those younger than you? do you really feel so intimidated by them that you speak with such vitriol about their tastes in clothing? competitiveness is common among young people; i hardly see how their actions qualify as a valid springboard for your broad accusations against all those who wear designer clothing.
Concerning the quality of a $300 shirt as opposed to an $80 dollar shirt, apparently you have no eye for quality. that wasn’t very nice of me, was it. stooping to your level is so very base, isn’t it.
ramat eshkol is honeymoon village where rich JAPs come for a couple of years after marriage before going back to face real life. I’m sure you can imagine why the brand names are out of hand.
WIY:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the problem you have with designer clothing stems from jealously more than a so called tznius problem.
WIY:
What you state is truly the hashkofos HaTorah.
Well said.
Im wearing a Kiton shirt…
I also think that its disgusting how certain young guys think that they have to wear everything thats either Hermes Burberry or Ferragamo.
I have to admit, I have no clue what these are.
Are they made in Italy or something?
WIY: The yeshivos request that you make your large donation known, so that it will insipre others. Only if you strongly insist they will not say anything, and you will feel guilty about it.
RE: Ferragamo Belts. 97% of them are knock offs. Another thing, belts, shoes, ties, socks are the one way Yeshiva guys can express their individuality whilst still being “black & white” if that makes them happy, why not indulge them? Why does this have to be a big deal?
Dunno
I’m not jealous, I work and can easily afford to dress like I’m “loaded” and wear all the fancy stuff but I choose not to and just dress normally without overdoing it because I know if I dressed that way it would be with negative intentions.
WIY
If you say so.
Sacrilige-
Why is it showing individuality if every single boy is either wearing one or pining for one. I don’t know too much about mens belts, but from what I have seen, all the Ferragamo belts look pretty much the same. No individuality there.
And if it is the quality that is so important, the label would not matter, which means that I could easily pull off the medallion on Tory Burch shoes, or cover the Ferragamo symbol and no one would have a problem with that. Let me know when you find someone who will agree to let you do that… I won’t hold my breath
Bombmaniac-
remember what we learned in preschool- putting down others does not make you right.
Congrats on becoming a mind reader and therefore knowing what I think even when I am not aware of it. Its a useful skill- put it to good use.
And I just love when people blame the designers for this- they are just putting on the symbols because they know that is what will sell. And they are rolling their way to the bank that people are stupid enough to fall for it.
ramateshkolian:
I assume then you do understand Tznius.
What is the Mekor for Tznius?
Mod80, feel free to pipe in whenever you want, you know we agree on this one, and have discussed it before. I’m going in the same direction.
My problem is not with the tznius aspect of this (even tho I think its not so tzniyus) as much as the fact that these people ramateshkolian is talking about are kollel couples. I dont care who is buying you the clothes- if your husband is in kollel then act like it.
And if you dont, then he should go out to work to support your brand name wardrobe instead of giving the rest of us a bad name.
if your husband is in kollel then act like it.
Why, if daddy is paying for it?
Reminds me of the Marvelous Middos Machine song about the toy store
yeshivaguy1-
Arzei, Machal and Maalot Dafna are ten times worse than Ramat Eshkol, and not everyine can find an apt in Sanhedria Murchevet- (esp not with that crazy vaad)so it spills over into ramat eshkol- there are plenty of serious couples here too.
whatrutalkingabt-
While its true that its inappropriate for a kollel family to walk around in brand names and ritzy cars, I don’t think that someone who goes to work has the right to do the same simply because they can afford it.
ramat
The world you describe is wonderful… yet, fantastical. Wouldnt it be great if we could all get married based on the p’nimius of a person? I mean the outside doesnt matter. Why dont we talk on the phone 3 times and then get married?
addicted
“Why is it showing individuality if every single boy is either wearing one or pining for one”
In which case they are saying they are followers. Besides, that wasnt the point at all.
“Ferragamo belts look pretty much the same”
Pretty much… knock off.
If this bickering doesn’t stop soon, I’m gonna come and whup y’all upside the head with my Ferragamo cane 🙂
so youre all saying that because someone who can’t afford to buy designer labels might get offended…no one should ever have them regardless of their reasons for purchasing them. i see. makes perfect sense. your contention is that people are focusing too much on their labels as opposed to what they really are, but how can you possibly know that?
so now your mission in life is to make every single person with a designer label aware of his arrogance and rectify the problem by forcing him to shop at wal-mart. better, you want then to WANT to shop at wal-mart. you would have everyone shop at the same stores so that everyone should appear to be at the same financial and social status lest someone who is less fortunate be offended. that’s ridiculous. it’s not a matter of tznius at all. you assume that people do it to flaunt, but your accusations are ridiculous. true there are people who do it to flaunt, but your beef should be with them not with people who wear designers in general.
now some of you may be wondering why i’m fighting so passionately about this. it’s because i am sick and tired of threads like these were people show their colors so openly. why is it impossible to be happy with what you have? there are people who have money and there are people who don’t. the people who have more DO NOT CARE about how much money the less fortunate have, the less fortunate SHOULD NOT CARE WHAT THE WEALTHY HAVE! is a person their wallet? is a human being defined by how beautiful or run down his house is?
i can guarantee you that if designers took their labels off their clothing you people would still be complaining athat people are buying expensive clothing. so don’t make this a tznius issue, please. it really isnt. call a spade a spade.
you should know though, that money does not buy happiness. many wealthy people have miserable lives, family problems, illnesses in the family, so much tzaros…many poor people have wonderful lives, happiness, shalom bayis, simchas hachaim…noney does not buy you happiness. so please…stop focusing on what other people do or do not have, and just work on your own lives. make your life, no matter how much money you do or don’t have, the best life it can be.
just an example, i have a friend who has been trying to write a novel for years. each time he gets close he scraps it and starts again. one time i asked him why he chucks it each time, he answered “because tolkien would never have wrote like this”. this man will NEVER write a novel in his life. why? because instead of focusing on himself, and where he needs improvement, he’s focusing on an unattainable goal which is holding him back. the same could be said of this thread. stop focusing on the unattainable, worry about yourself. work with what you have. make the best life for yourself that you possibly can, don’t waste it worrying about what other people have that you can’t.
Clearly bombmaniac was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
Ramateshkolian is correct, but should have used different phraseology.
People who claim to be ovdei hashem but habitually emphasize materialism in their lives are hypocrites.
“Clearly bombmaniac was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.”
assuming you’re right, does that make any difference to you?
“Ramateshkolian is correct, but should have used different phraseology.
People who claim to be ovdei hashem but habitually emphasize materialism in their lives are hypocrites.”
again, what makes you think that everyone with a designer label is overemphasizing materialism?
Clearly bombmaniac was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
Sounds like an alarm is ringing on the Kinnah-O-Meter. 🙂
People who claim to be ovdei hashem but habitually emphasize materialism in their lives are hypocrites.
As I have said, my experience has been that the real “Ovdei Hashem” also emphasize money, due to its lack, if not materialism.
When was the last time you saw a herring and Kichel (or salami sandwich) wedding? Or do you go collect to buy an apartment?
so right:
You’re just trying to find a reason why not to listen to what bombmaniac has to say. Since this is unfortunately the case, take it from me. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and yet agree with bombmaniac 100%.
Squeak
I hope you are standing at the ready with that designer label cane of yours 🙂
bombmaniac et al…
Rav Ruderman – 613 Mitzvos Doesn’t Automatically Make You A Tzaddik
“I have lived with Lavan (Im Lavan Garti), and tarried until now” [Bereshis 32:5]. Rashi cites the famous Chazal that the word “Garti” (I lived) has the numerical value of 613 (Taryag), indicating “I lived with the wicked Lavan, but I observed the 613 Commandments – without learning from his evil ways.”
Rav Ruderman noted the apparent redundancy in Yaakov’s message to his brother, Eisav. If Yaakov had already sent the message “I observed the 613 Commandments,” what is added by further stating “and I have not learned from the evil ways of Lavan?” Rav Ruderman Zt”l, taught that the inference to be drawn is that one can observe the 613 commandments and, nevertheless, learn from the ways of a Lavan.
Even within the context of a fully observant life-style, a person can wind up looking like a Lavan. Even when an individual’s actions are technically permissible, the person may still be acting like a Lavan. A person can live an indulgent life-style — one that may not technically deviate from the letter of the Law, but one,which is totally foreign from the spirit of the Law.
Therefore, Yaakov clarified: “Not only have I observed the letter of the 613 commandments, I have also not learned from Lavan and have even continued to observe the spirit of those laws.”
From Revach.net
It was a joke, good people of the coffee room. Although I certainly don’t agree with bombmaniac, my previous comment was sheer humor.
WIY:
Now you have to prove designer labels are included as “indulgent”.
Please also prove that it is more indulgent than buying your children apartments for their Chassuna, which is accepted practice in Charaidi EY. If that is Muttar, I can’t see how designer clothes would be a problem.
I await your proof.
so right
Interesting sense of humor. In that case, my apologies.
this post is getting more hilarious by the hour.
as always your input is highly valued by the rest of us.
frumlady
It was a hilarious (pathetic?) statement to make in the first place.
When was the last time you saw a herring and Kichel (or salami sandwich) wedding?
Actually, I was at a wedding in Lakewood a number of years ago where they did serve deli sandwiches.
It was (to me, anyway) a refreshing change from the standard fare.
The Wolf
GAW
It can be well argued that an apartment is a necessity an an intelligent investment as owning real estate in Israel is a winning proposition especially if you read the recent articles on how the real estate market is booming in Israel.
Designer clothing is most definitely not a necessity! Its totally for Gaivah especially when taken to excess.
Wolf:
Old school Lakewood was the real deal.
i wanted to have hot dogs and hamburgers for one of my childrens chasunas. it didnt happen
GAW
It can be well argued that an apartment is a necessity an an intelligent investment as owning real estate in Israel is a winning proposition especially if you read the recent articles on how the real estate market is booming in Israel.
Designer clothing is most definitely not a necessity! Its totally for Gaivah especially when taken to excess.
Of course. Everyone’s shver can indulge his SIL with 50K – 100K to “invest” on other people’s Cheshbon (collecting).
How about renting an apartment, just like the rest of the world?
Plain and simple luxury, insisted on by bochrim who have been taught it is their birthright.
GAW
Ok I hear that the collecting for an apartment is inappropriate but thats not the case for everyone. The minhag to buy an apartment has been around a long time. Its just that prices have gone up big time and now some have to go collecting to afford to pay for it. I agree if you cant afford it then go without it.
Ask a Rabbi if you are obligated to give Tzeddakah to someone collecting for a house for his kid.
the point isnt whether an apartment is appropriate or not, the is that jealousy gets us nowhere. so how about focusing on yourselves and not others.
WIY:
Fair enough. But it then seems you can indulge if it is a “minhag” and you are not using other people’s money.
How about Halacha, like buying clothes for Yom Tov?
GAW
Stop asking me questions that you can answer on your own.
If someone can afford buying an apartment its not indulging by definition, its a very real need and a smart investment.
The size of the apartment and how lavishly it is decorated, thats where indulgence comes into play.
A car is a need, getting a brand new BMW 760li fully loaded is an indulgence.
Theres a Halacha, of buying clothes for Yom Tov, in that case its a mitzvah to buy your wife something nice. Although theres likely a limit to how much one needs to spend on that as well.
GAW-
Daddy should not be paying for it when they are supposedly living a kollel lifestyle. If he has extra money to give them, it should be put in savings so they dont have to schnorr off of others when it comes time to pay tuition
“A car is a need, getting a brand new BMW 760li fully loaded is an indulgence.”
it has it’s benefits. its very comfortable it drives well, it has great fuel economy, teh nav is convenient, and its a very safe car. next example…?
“The size of the apartment and how lavishly it is decorated, thats where indulgence comes into play.”
a man’s home is his castle, who wants to live in a hovel? besides as long as he isnt parading the world through his living room, who cares?
WIY:
I happen to like the socratic method (If you haven’t noticed yet). I apologize if it bothers you. It is a rather jewish thing to do it seems, always answer with a question.
For things like mitzvos of Yom Tov, if the label item is nicer, and it can be afforded, then why not? (Rhetorical)
bombmaniac
Look up the meaning of indulgent.
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