Labels And Tzinus

Very true. And sad.

Which leads me to another rant: we frum Jews WORSHIP money!!!

Speak for yourself.

A number of years ago, I won a megillas Esther at a Chinese auction. It came with a beautiful large silver case. I personally detest ostentatious displays (for myself, anyway) and NEVER used the case. For a number of years, I carried the megillah around in a Ziplock bag.

Eventually, my mother in law bought me a simple wooden case, which I now use.

In any large population, you’ll find some examples of people who are showy. But I don’t think frum Jews are any more or less showy with their wealth than the population at large.

The Wolf

This really doesnt have to do with Tznius and I dont like that it gets lumped together, because it just turns girls off from the idea of Tznius altogether.

If you can wear a designer label and still be tasteful and tznius GO RIGHT AHEAD, part of being Jewish is being a light unto the nations and to constantly be making a Kiddush Hash-m. When non-Jews see Frum girls out in the world dressed tastefully and not in some shmatta bag with their eye brows covered they see that we are normal yet refined, and I believe (for whatever its worth) that is a Kiddush Hash-m.

If you want to say that we are Goshmius hungry, that I agree with. But dont say its a tznius issue, because its not.

smartcookie: I agree…

Jews need money since tuition, food and housing is so high and we have politicians that care about Gaza more than BP or Flatbush

The main issue is spiritual emptiness.

I respectfully disagree.

The people that I know that have real money (9 figures +) do not and have no need to “flaunt” it.

It is the people who do not have money who worship/obsess over it (at least from what I have seen, from the kollel guys who hock about it to the people who borrow to dress their children matching or to make a wedding “just like the Cohens'”).

Then if they get it (in whatever fashion), some people feel the need to say “I’ve made it” to their peer group. Ga’aiva, perhaps.

The only reason to have money is as a tool for Avodas Hashem. Pay bills on time, pay tuition, give tzedaka (All Mitzvos D’Orayssa), as well as other good causes.

Now, being that I am not in Ramat Eshkol (to the OP), I can’t speak for other areas.

There is also peer pressure involved in those areas (possibly), which may “force” people to dress showy. Ramat Eshkol is the American neighborhood in Yerushalyim, correct? It may just be importing those attitudes (maybe, I don’t really know).

Wolf: Good for you, that is the right thing. I still don’t have a megillah (after all these years), I just don’t see it as required over other expenses.

Sacrilege-

tznius is about being an internal person. Though I agree that wearing labels is not a black and white issue, someone who is a true tznuah does not need to or want to wear labels.

I think that people who have real class and real money do not have the need to flaunt their wealth by wearing labels. They may spend an exhorbiant amount of money on their clothes, but the world doesn’t have to know it.

It is the people who are insecure about their status that have to prove to you that they could afford to buy xyz…

And don’t kid yourselves, people. I would venture to say that half of the labels you see nowadays are knockoffs.

americaisover

“Jews need money since tuition, food and housing is so high and we have politicians that care about Gaza more than BP or Flatbush”

Also because we want Bugaboos, Designer clothing, ridiculous weddings….

driving in a lexus

could be a tznius issue, depends

tznius is about a lot more than covering certain areas

it has to do with speech, with deportment, with ostentation, with causing hirhur, to start

Where do you live?! You obviously dont live in Brooklyn, Five Towns or Lakewood!

As a matter of fact, I *do* live in Brooklyn. And while there are showy Jews in Brooklyn, there are showy non-Jews in Brooklyn as well. I don’t believe it’s to any greater (or lesser) extent than in the population as a whole.

The Wolf

Wolfishmusings is VERY far off about Jews being no more showy. Anyway, since when are jews okay if their acting exactly like the non-jews?! Aren’t we expected to live more meaningful lives than goyim? Aren’t we supposed to be a “light unto the nations”? A shining example for the rest of the word of how to live moral, meaningful and fulfilling lives?! It scares me what’s become of this world when I see a comment like that. Wake up and see the light WolfishMusings! Repent while you still can!

Let me get this straight…

Another poster makes the comment that Jews are more showy than non-Jews.

I disagree and state that they aren’t any more showy.

You then decide that *I* have to repent because Jews should act better (i.e. be less showy) than non-Jews.

While I don’t argue that Jews should NOT engage in ostentatious displays, is there a reason you’re picking on me rather than on the OP who posited an even worse position vis-a-vis the behavior of Jews? Tell me why I need to “repent while I still can” but the OP is free and clear?

The Wolf

aside from tznius, we are in galus and we are not suppose to incite the goyim to hate us even more. By flaunting out money (sometimes people don’t even realize it they just do it cuz everyone else is…) we are causing the goyim to be jealous (aside from our own brethren…) and inciting them to hate us even more.

sacrilege-

if you are defining tznius as strictly what you wear, and how many inches you cover, then you are right.

But the correct definition of tznius is to focus on the internal, and to treat the external secondary. Tznius is a mindset, not a wordrobe.

The problem with our system today is that we spend so much time focusing on the details. If we would teach our students more about living a life of tznius, we wouldn’t have to spell out every little detail. They would be able to come to that on their own.

we frum Jews WORSHIP money!!”

Hence the avoda zara that was known as worshipping ma-mon. (I only wrote it this way because I was not sure if it permitted to write the name of an AZ idol)

I will share with you something personal about me. Before I became frum/religious I was very anti-esthetic like, anti-materialistic-worship like, and in fact you could say I was an “Au Natural granola type”. I used cloth diapers, sewed clothing, made our meals from scratch, organic soymilk from beans. My dream was to live and walk with Hashem humbly. I would never have been caught dead in my wildest dreams with a fur coat or leather couch. I was a vegetarian.

Anyhow, i grew up and ended up joining the “real world” eventually like most of us, and as I melted into the chareidi lifestyle I slowly found myself getting caught up and lost my head when it came to materialism. I won’t even go into detail to what extents I was willing to go in order to keep up with “looks and styles”. But I finally asked myself “where am I?” This is not me! WHen I look around at the majority of the ladies I am surrounded by in my neighborhood, and I feel ashamed that these righteous tzedakeses are turning heads when they cross the street! I am not sure they are even aware how “good they look”. But I have seen goyish men turn to stare.

Tznius is not even trying to keep up with styles. Tznius is suppose to be a statment. That you are like Avraham Avinu, going against the grain, against all of the world’s and society’s beliefs and styles. When ladies wear what is popular and stylish but in a “tznius way” I feel it sort of is like a compromise of our pure values.

This idea of “Kosher human hair wigs” is a bunch of baloney. How many European women have you heard of grow their hair for Industry purposes? It does not exist! ITs still grown on the heads of idol worshippers in India but exported for sale to Europe where they say “.. its European”. Its impossible that one can put a hechsher on a sheital, as if from the time its cut off the woman until its’ end creation some mashgiach will be watching over.

I will tell you a true story. In the place where my husband works there is a number of goyim from those countries. One day one of them approached my husband and shared with him, out of interest sake ” Yeah you know something,,,each year in our country back home our women shave off their long hair to bring as a offering to our idols in the temple and then we sell it to YOU, for your women who make the wigs…neat huh?”.

My husband was like super dumbfounded cause this was well AFTER the big explosion of the sheital crisis!!!

The one thing I really dislike all in all is the “putting on airs”, as people maneuver themselves across the room at parties, putting on an the elegant stunning act. In fact it says:

And what does Hashem your G-d ask of you?

To walk humbly with him.

Well its awfully hard to walk humbly with Abishter when you have all that materialism hanging off you.

ive posted about this before and i will post about it again. this is not a matter of tznius, this is not a matter of frumkeit, this is not a matter of one jew feeling genuine concern for the spiritual wellbeing of another, this is about jealousy. plain and simple. and you want to know what i think? GET OVER IT!!! if you can’t afford designer labels, DON’T BUY THEM! baruch hashem there are people in our communities who have been blessed by hashem with wealth, and they can do with that wealth what they want, (within the boundaries of halacha obviously) and you have no say in that.

for some reason people always feel a need to pick on the wealthy, to criticize them for the clothes they wear, the cars they drive, the houses they build, and the neighbourhoods they live in. the united states government takes every opportunity it can to tax teh wealthy because the less fortunate (monetarily speaking) are not happy with what they have, and cannot begrudge the wealthy their gifts. GET OVER IT! this issue is not one of tznius. is there designer clothing that should never be worn in public? yes. is there designer clothing that is perfectly acceptable save for the status symbol on the upper left side of the pocket? yes. so teh issue is not about status, or wealth, its about people not being someach b’chelkam. that’s your problem, not the wealthy’s.

Addicted that was very well said.

Thank you 🙂

bombmaniac

I know someone who I always “thought” was wealthy based on how he dressed, his house and his car and how he “”carried” himself. well somebody told me that this guy is in debt big time his wife wants the glam ritzy life and he goes along with her shinanigans. His life is miserable. He is so broke and yet still drives a $75,000 car.

Its not about jealousy. You dont know how many people try to “look” rich when they arent. Its a big Yetzer Hara to have “status” because we made being rich into such a big “zach” in our communities that people will do anything to maintain that status even if it means stealing from your best friends, brothers, uncles, Rabbis….you name it.

wonderful, WIY, i love how you made the leap from “wealthy” to “broke” to “crooks” all in teh span of a few sentences. first of all i am calling for people to live within their means, so you are simply making my point for me. secondly it is perfectly understandable why someone who is used to wealth would try and maintain the illusion, it’s not out of some sense of elitism, it’s for their own benefit. regardless of whether people should or should not, people will talk about them and tell all kinds of potentially harmful lashon hara. that sound crazy? not really, i’ll quote your words: “Its a big Yetzer Hara to have “status” because we made being rich into such a big “zach” in our communities that people will do anything to maintain that status even if it means stealing from your best friends, brothers, uncles, Rabbis….you name it.”

such motzi shem rah, i’m disappointed! an ehrliche middle class gentleman such as yourself should know better…

Bombmaniac (and sacrilige who seems to agree)

I never said that wealthy people have to live like paupers. And it is really beautiful when they give tzeddakah and support our mosdos. At the same time, there must be a balance!

I am thinking of a few people whom I personally know. They are very wealthy, they do have large houses and they drive niceish, newish cars. They dress nicely and always look good. But if I had to pick out the richest person in the room, I most definitely would not pick them, although their bank statements will undoubtedly prove that they actually are the most wealthy. This is because they are not out to prove anything. They don’t have to wear $1,000 designer shoes just to prove they could afford it.

And sacrilige-

I am not claiming that I don’t enjoy a successful shopping trip. But I get the most pleasure when I find great deals, and see how much I’ve saved by waiting for the sale, or shopping in the outlet. That is a far better feeling than coming home with something that I can’t afford.

I agree with Sac(I am sorry, I do not like you screen name)– pushing tsnius chumros and making not-tsnius related shailos into tsnius-related ones is a big problem!

But I also agree with Frumladygit that some married ladies are too dressed up and make-uped(there is more room to be lenient with girls in shidduchim).

Bombmaniac

So we agree people should live within their means. But many dont, and many want people to think they are rich or richer than they are. Hey we all know who gets all the attention these days. We know that money means the Rabbis come to you, you get all the Kavod, the parlor meetings, the photo ops. Your name on buildings…

I would like to know how many people who have BIG BUCKS would give $1,000,000 or more to a yeshiva and not publicize it and not have their name on the building or anywhere.