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I was told that if a product is labeled OUD and there is no milk or any other dairy product listed in the ingredients then its really parve.
The only reason why it is labeled OUD is because it was made in a factory that makes dairy and may have used dairy equipment and therefore should not be eaten together with fleishig, however it is truly pareve.
Anyone heard of this? Am i making any mistakes?
I do recall seeing some products labeled “dairy equipment” is this what it means? Why then are products that do not contain any dairy not all labeled “dairy equipment”?
I was told further that if the ingredients do not contain any dairy then it certainly is the case since by law these things must be clearly stated for the sake of allergic people or other maladies.
The OU does not use the DE (dairy equipment) symbol anymore. many products such as oreos for example are really DE and have just an OUD. Check online with CRC or Star K or call them up if you have any specific questions.
They don’t trust people to know the halakha for themselves, I suppose. Ashkenazim are allowed to eat DE after meat; Sephardim theoretically can eat parve food made in a dairy pot with meat. I asked a rabbi and friend of mine once, “What is the Yiddish word for dairy equipment?” and his answer was “Parve.”
The government allows many ingredients (insect parts, derivates from pigs and horses, and who knows what) to be included in a product without having to list it on the ingredients. When you see something with a milkig hecksher, on a “non-dairy” product, you see why no one serious about keeping kosher relies on lists of ingredients and instead, checks for the hecksher.
See a post on mozzarella about shitot from kashrut agencies in other countries on reading labels (including a machlokes Rashba-Noda beYehuda).
In the case of DE, I do know that Oreos are parve/DE. If you call the OU regarding a specific product, they usually will answer you honestly.
There is a difference in philosophy of what is the job of the certifying organization. Are they there to INFORM OR PROTECT? In this case the OU has decided to protect, and be strict.
Practically speaking, do not assume that no dairy ingredients means pareve. For example, I called them a little while ago about oreos. I was told that plain and double stuffed may be considered DE, but all other flavors are really dairy. I don’t think that the other flavors report having milk in their ingredients. So please be careful.
The OU’s number is 212-613-8241.
There can be an ?D for a few reasons. It could very well be that the item is parve, or made on milchig keilim, but it’s also possible that the milchig ingredient is unlisted, or unfamiliar to the consumer. I don’t think one should assume it’s not milchig without first asking the ?.
Yes there are gov. regulations.
I once asked Rabbi Yisroel Belsky about this and he stated that the food “industry” has become increasingly more “defensive” about it’s labeling on account of some law suits.
End Result is that many things that are made in factories that aso produce dairy items are labeled “dairy” so the company can protect itself.
This has ramifications to the Kashrus labeling as well since they can’t reay label something as pareve if the actual label says “dairy”.
The only solution with hashgachos that don’t use DE is to call up and inquire about specific items. I know that Oreos are parve; the Daf HaKashrus Vol. 11 No. 4 states that : The following certified HAAGEN DAZS SORBETS contain NO dairy ingredients of any sort, but are labeled as they are produced on dairy equipment:
Chocolate sorbet, Chocolate sorbet bar, Lemon sorbet, Mango
fruit sorbet, Orange sorbet, Orchard Peach sorbet, Raspberry
fruit sorbet, Raspberry sorbet, Strawberry fruit sorbet,
Strawberry sorbet, Zesty lemon sorbet.
Unless anything has changed since that publication, you can certainly then have these sorbets after a fleishig meal.
The FDA allows companies not to list ingredients which make up less than 2% of the product.
Just because something is LESS than 2% WILL NOT MAKE IT BITUL B’SHISHIM.
Thus you cannot use the ingredients to prove that something is parve, it is very possible that the item is in fact milchigs.
The FDA allows companies not to list ingredients which make up less than 2% of the product.
I do not think this is true. I have read the regulations myself, and they require listing every ingredient.
The packaging usually just states “Contains less than 2% of:” and then lists ALL of the ingredients. They also list the ingredients in order of the quantity of the ingredient in the product (wow, that’s clunky), so while I wouldn’t rely on that, it’s reasonably likely that the last ingredient on the list MAY be batul beshishim.
I personally feel that this is the OU’s worst policy- not to use DE. Their reasoning is that when using Dairy equipment, it can sometimes be difficult to verify that there is no real milchik residue left in the machine which might not be batul. That is what OU told me.
But this creates a tremendous michshol. Look at all these people who think Oreos is really DE. As mentioned above, this is not true about all the Oreo varieties. And what happens if Oreos changes their formula and puts actual dairy into the cookies? How will anybody know about the change?
I know so many people who eat real dairy products after fleishigs because they think OU-D is really D.E.. A regular average person is not familiar with different ingredients, and does not know what is real milk and what is not.
Why can’t the OU act like every other hashgocho and label D.E. as D.E.!?!
So if you trust Obama and Cuomo to tell you what is kosher, rely on the list of ingredients. I prefer to trust our rabbanim. Remember that if something is parve, it has greater value for the manufacturer, and they will complain about the “D” – and if our rabbanim are insisting on the “D”, we should probably rely on them. And if you do rely on the goyim rather than the rabbanim, you can probably assume that the pig extracts and ground up insects are bitul under someone’s shitah.
I’ve seen products that are labeled parve but have an allergen warning saying that they’re made in a plant that uses milk ingredients (or maybe even “may contain traces of milk”). So I don’t think labeling something OUD has anything to do with protecting the company from lawsuits over allergic reactions. I’d be very surprised if a manufacturer told the OU to label something OUD if it wasn’t at least DE.
@anonymouschochom
which hechsheirim still use the DE label?
And considering how little they cared when the mislabeled something pareve that was actually milchigs…
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-kashrus-is-not-reliable
The Kehila California hechsher on Turtle Mountain ice cream uses DE, and the crown-shaped hechsher on Sarabeth’s granola uses DE.
I never suggested that people eat OU-D after meat across the board; I said that people need to ascertain specific products in question.
“The FDA allows companies not to list ingredients which make up less than 2% of the product.”
Not really true. All ingredients must be listed. BUT processing agents do not. For example, if lard was used to grease the cookie sheet.
“And what happens if Oreos changes their formula and puts actual dairy into the cookies? How will anybody know about the change?”
Actually the guy I spoke with told me that I need to call back in a few months to verify if there are any changes. So the OU does take that into consideration. Don’t go by heresay or rumors; call them.
I think most hechsherim still use “DE”. Chof-K uses it on many Popsicle brand deserts. cRc Chicago uses it, and so should OU. It would be a lot less confusing.
popa_bar_abba, you are correct. A while back I almost purchased some ice-cream cones labeled OU Pareve. B”H, I have a strange habit to read the ingredients before I purchase a product I never had before. I noticed whey listed in the ingredients. I contacted OU. They made me purchase the product, read them the label and send them pictures of it. They confirmed that the product was indeed dairy. It took them WEEKS to release a bulletin about the mislabeled product!
“And what happens if Oreos changes their formula and puts actual dairy into the cookies? How will anybody know about the change?”
Why is this the OUs problem. They already label the cookies OUD. If you want to try and outsmart them and start klerring about each individual item and its certification, that is your problem, not theirs.
Listing dairy as an allergen and labeling something ou pareve, or just plain ou are not mutually exclusive. The allergen can potentially be one part in a million, but it is listed as a medical precaution, not a kashrus issue.
as regards oreos
as has been posted here before, oreos are labeled oud because that is what the manufacturer wants: they reserve the right to start using dairy ingredients or equipment without having to change labels. Which therefore means they always may have done so the day before yesterday. You must always consider oreos as possibly dairy, unless you constantly check.
to pba
don’t you think you did enough harm in exchange for a few laughs when you first posted that, that you now have to point to it again?
no one should believe your ‘mosur modaah’, you don’t stick to it.
Anonymouschochom – I heard from someone in kashrus that the reason the OU doesn’t use DE is because people didn’t realize that you can’t eat it WITH fleishig, so putting on an OUD is safer, and if there are no milchig ingredients, you can call and find out if it’s actually parve.
Although it may sound logical that if there is nothing milk related on the allergy information, it must be that there is no milk content, this isn’t true. I spoke to someone in kashrus, and he said there are things that don’t affect people with milk allergies, but are still milk derivatives. In fact, they are coming out with a way to make milk without the part that allergic people react to.
Another point: the OU says that they take no responsibility for the companies cleaning off the equipment after a dairy run, so although the ingredients are parve, it might be an issue. Ask your rov what to do before you have oreos or the such after fleishig.
If there is no dairy ingredient LISTED and no allergy warning, then the items might be pareve, but should not be eaten with fleishigs. You need to check with the OU on each item.
I Received the following email from the ou
Forwarded message
From: Webbe Rebbe <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: Oreo cookies
To: ……. <……@gmail.com>
Dear ……,
Thank you for contacting the OU.
At the present time, most varieties of Oreo Cookies contain dairy
ingredients, with three notable exceptions. Original Oreo Sandwich
Cookies, Oreo Double Stuf Sandwich Cookies and Mini Original Oreo
Sandwich Cookies do not contain dairy ingredients, though they are
manufactured on dairy equipment. The equipment is not necessarily
cleaned before the production of these three cookies, and there may be
a small amount of dairy residue present. Nonetheless, the dairy
component would be minimal, and from a Halachic perspective, the dairy
residue is nullified (botel bishishim) and of no consequence. The
bottom line of all this is that these three cookies may be consumed
after meat and poultry, but not simultaneously.
Please bear in mind that the manufacturer may choose in the future to
reformulate these products and add dairy ingredients. Since these
products already bear OUD symbols, formulation changes would not be
reflected in the OUD logo. As such, we recommend that consumers check
regularly with our office to confirm the status of these items.
Please do not hesitate to contact us again should you have any further
questions.
Sincerely,
The Web(be) Rebbe
Orthodox Union Kashruth Division
Visit us online at: http://www.oukosher.org
Date: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 11:57 AM
So that information is not timely, considering their own disclaimer that things can change without notice.
And considering how little they cared when the mislabeled something pareve that was actually milchigs…
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-kashrus-is-not-reliable
The OU did away with OU-DE because they said it was too confusing for consumers (I guess they would know based on the number of inquiries they got). They use OU-D instead of DE figuring its better if people mistakenly think it is full fledged dairy instead of just made on dairy equipment, instead of confusing so many people.
They use OU-D instead of DE figuring its better if people mistakenly think it is full fledged dairy instead of just made on dairy equipment, instead of confusing so many people.
Similarly, they think it’s better if people mistakenly think something actually dairy is pareve rather than know it is dairy and be confused.
See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/ou-kashrus-is-not-reliable
You are so machmir, popa. I bet you’re the type of guy who not only checks his own lettuce with a lighbox, but you also have someone else looking over your shoulder to make sure you are doing it correctly.
He checks the lightbox too.
Look for allergy information. If a product is OUD but has no milk in allergy information, it may be parve. Call the OU to ascertain.
Sakana is more strict than issur, especially where there is legal liability (and deep pockets).
Just to clarify what mdg said,
Legally cassein, whey, lactose etc are not milk.
The phrase “may contain …” is not fda regulTed. So if a product doesn’t contain milk but does contain lactose it is halacikly milchig yet legally not.
This is especially problematic with lactose and it’s derivatives since allergy to milk is usually to proteins.
Bottom line is to call the hashgacha and find out. The fda and legavdil halacha have different rules/regulations and definitions
Just read the ingredients.
And considering how little they cared when the mislabeled something pareve that was actually milchigs…
Just read the ingredients.
Here is an example of an item with no dairy ingredients that is milchig. Take an egg. Boil it in milk. Peel the egg. The egg is milchig, but contains no dairy ingredients.
Similarly with meat. Deep fry chicken in oil. Use the same oil to deep fry French fries. The French fries are fleishig, and require you to wait 6 hours after eating them, but contain no meat.
The question is not whether it contains milk or meat, but rather whether the taste of milk or meat has been transferred to it.
“as regards oreos”
Forget Oreos. Eat Hydrox. For 90 years they were the only kosher chocolate sandwich cookie. And they were always kosher.
I am more concerned about another OU Kashrus situation:
The hundreds of Milchig (Dairy) coffee creamers they certify as Kosher. In accordance with some obscure government regulation, these are mislabeled as “NON-DAIRY”; an invitation to use them during a Fleishig (Meat) meal.
Shame on OU!!!
Which ones? The ones I’ve seen do not say non-dairy on them.
The hundreds of Milchig (Dairy) coffee creamers they certify as Kosher. In accordance with some obscure government regulation, these are mislabeled as “NON-DAIRY”; an invitation to use them during a Fleishig (Meat) meal.
Are they really milchig?
They definitely have a milchig ingredient.
Here’s the ingredients list for International Delight French Vanilla Coffee Creamer:
NON-DAIRY PRODUCT INGREDIENTS: WATER, CANE SUGAR, PALM OIL, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF EACH OF THE FOLLOWING: SODIUM CASEINATE* (A MILK DERIVATIVE), DIPOTASSIUM PHOSPHATE, NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVORS, MONO AND DIGLYCERIDES, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, POLYSORBATE 60, CARRAGEENAN, SALT.
*SODIUM CASEINATE IS NOT A SOURCE OF LACTOSE.
How could it be that there’s a government regulation that it must say non-dairy in big letters if most don’t? (I believe the words “non-dairy” only appear with the ingredients, which clearly show a milchig ingredient.) I suspect that it’s a bubbe maisah.
Ahin
This is what I alluded to earlier. The government holds “chalav shenishtanu” isnt milk. I.e. milk derivatives are non-dairy. As far as halacha goes, (most hold that) derivatives of milk are milchig.
The OU therefore writes OU-D it is milching if somebody decides to ignore the OU’s clearly labeling it as dairy and instead to rely on the ingrediebnts or The FDS”s pesak that it is “non-dairy” why is that the OU’s problem.
I really sont understand theese people. I assume you are checking for a hechsher you see the OU you see the D which you know means the OU is telling you it is dairy (unless you call and they tell you otherwise) why would you listen to the company or FDA over the hashgacha?
they are labeled as non-dairy not for kashrus or allergy reasons,
but to make it clear to purchasers that they are not buying milk or cream.
this does not mean to say (as it would seem to a kosher consumer)
that no ingredient is derived from milk.
I suspect the dairy lobby pushed for a regulation requiring coffee creamers that aren’t primarily milk products to be labeled “non-dairy.” The dairy lobby used to be very powerful. Back in the day, it was forbidden for margarine to be colored yellow or to be compared to butter in advertising. I remember some brand of margarine claiming it was as good as “the 70 cent spread,” a euphemism for butter.
Ahin
Should the ou avoid certifying a product labeled “gluten free” since someone might decide it isn’t chometz?
By the time it’s in your coffee it’s definitely batul b’shishim.
So the chsh’ash is that someone will think it’s pareve, and have a coffee with batul bshishim dairy while he’s fleishig.
I can live with htat.
Or while eating his roast beef sandwich.
I can live with that too. Is it even assur l’chatchila?
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