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Please share your thoughts with the CF gang.
Its a minhug on Chanuka.
It’s not really a question of muttar or assur. It doesn’t fall under the category of “mesachek b’kuvia”
It’s not really a question of muttar or assur. It doesn’t fall under the category of “mesachek b’kuvia”
The reason one who is Misachek Bikuvia is posul for eidus is because it is as if he is stealing, since his opponent had no intention of losing.
An elementary school rebbe I had said thet kfitlach (which I was told is the card game “21”) is equally problematic.
I saw boys literally crying after losing $20 (lots of money for a little kid then), which is a clear indicator they did not intend to lose.
I can only try,
Misachek Bikuvia is only when one gambles for a living. occasionally gambling is not Misachek Bikuvia and thus the player is not posul l’edus. This may not “sound” right and it may hurt your sensitivities, but thats the halach and this is not assur at all.
Azi-
The reason I was told Misachek Bikuvia (literally “plays with squares” – i.e. dice) pasels one for eidus is because he is a gazlun – he is taking and keeping money from a mekach ta’os.
Did you hear otherwise?
Someone who plays with dice is only posul for eidus if he does it for a living, from what I was taught in yeshivah. Maybe that is because he is willing to risk anything on teh turn of the dice, so he does not ahve the proper mindset for the chashivus of honest eidus.
The funny thing is when I saw the title of this thread, “Kvitlach, Muttar or Assur.” I actually thought it was about the permissibility of putting little messages into the cracks in the Kotel.
azi-
oomis1105-
Just to clarify:
I am certainly not saying a game of kvitlech (you’re right oomis1105, same word) passels anyone for eidus, or those playing it are professional misachkei bekuvios.
I am repeating what a rebbe I had once said about the game.
azi-
I appreciate your concern about “hurt(ing) (my) sensitivities”, but it’s OK – my sensitivities will get over it.
I can only try
Im glad to see your a strong person.
If I’m not mistaken the mishna berura “shrais” against it & says it’s assur gomur
Took me a few minutes to figure this out. I thought you meant kvitlach, as in those papers in the kosel 😉
Could someone please give a clear definition of what this is, for those of us who don’t have a clue?
So the kosel was a question, but the Rebbes are definitely OK?
Regarding cards (which is what is really meant in this case), I am not aware of a prohibition specifically relating to the mode of gambling, rather only the gambling itself.
The halacha assumes that one only puts the money into the pot so as to qualify for winning the pot. Had he known that he would not win he would have not put the money in to begin with. Therefore it is stealing from the losers (who regret their bets) everytime you win.
Unless someone knows of another reason, I see nothing wrong with playing for chips and glory only (no money involved). Some people may say not to learn gambling games, but I personally don’t hold that is a problem.
There are exceptions for the laws of ribis when dealing with one’s immediate family (wife, children) and I always thought that there might be a tsu shtel to gambling – but I never asked a shaila on it, so I don’t know if I’m right.
Squeak, or someone else, please start with alef beis.
E.g. there is a minhag (started by whom and when, and followed by whom now) to play (define the game) when (all the nights of Chanuka?). Is it connected to dreidel, nittel nacht, or what? Etc. Our inquiring minds want to know.
I know that we were all taught that the Jews during the times of Chanuka played dreidel to hide the fact that they were learning Torah from the authorities. The origin of the minhag to play on Chanuka these days is dubious, but that is one possibiliy.
Nittel nacht, at least from what I know, was a night that Jews kept a low profile because to be seen not celebrating was likely to provoke attacks. People would not kindle any light in their home and in general just go to sleep early (or stay awake davening in the dark and worrying about their families tucked in bed). Nothing to do with cards.
There are plenty of online resources that deal directly with the question of why we play on Chanuka (I just searched) but all seem to agree that there is no concrete “source” for the minhag except that it is practiced. If you want to play for money, you might consider asking a shaila on that. But if you want to play on Chanuka for no money there should be no problem (in my mind; read on for mention of others’).
As I briefly mentioned in my previous post, some are concerned about the “slippery slope” when it comes to playing or learning gambling games. One thing leads to another and poof – one day a person could Ch”V become a real gambler. Everyone has to know themselves and if you think this may be a problem you should take it seriously.
As far as I know, unless one has a tendency to become a gambler the problem is asmachta (what I described above) and if there is no money involved there should be no problem. Some authorities may be more lenient but for leniencies you better ask your own shaila 😉
I have to admit that the subject of this thread threw me for a loop. I was sure it referred to a Kvittel one gives when going to a Rebbe. 🙂
I have heard that the idea of playing cards is related to “leil nittel” when there are those who have a minhag not to learn (although, I suppose any batlan who spends his days in Vegas can claim he is super machmir and observes this minhag year round!) although I have no idea how the minhag of playing cards evolved. Why didnt everyone just stay home and read a good book if they werent going out to learn?
An explanation of the problem with gambling, and the reason it pasels one for eidus is:
Mishneh Torah H’ Gezelah 6:10 (explains why misachek bikuvia is gezel).
??????? ?????? ????. ??? ??????? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???????. ??”? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????. ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???
H’ Eidus 10:4 (this doesn’t address gambling per se, but taking money by force, usurious lending and borrowing, and several professsions that intrinsically compel dishonesty).
???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ??”? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??”? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??????:
In order to Omer Dovor Beshem Omroi, this was cut-and-pasted from:
http://www.hashkafah.com/Gambling_t17489.html&mode=linear
This is NOT about kvitlach (or kfitlach, as commonly pronounced).
This is specifically about misachek bikuvia and psul eidus, as discussed above.
notpashut or anyone else – if you know where in the Mishan Berura this is discussed, I’d greatly appreciate the mekor.
The question of muttar – assur is not one to be decided based on opinion or our own logical tzugleichen (comparison).
If one is unsure, consult your LOR.
Gut Shabbos.
notpashut-
I looked thru the Mishan Berura re: hilchos Chanuka over Shabbos (it’s only about 20 pages), and there’s no mention of either dreidel or kvitlech.
He does mention a minhag of eating cheese, to comemorate Yehudis killing the general, which I don’t think most poeple do nowadays.
Is it possible that you may have seen another sefer or ma’amer from the Chofetz Chaim where he addresses these questions, either as halocha or as a recommendation?
Gut voch
the mishnah berurah was a litvak and, therefore, a killjoy like all other litvaks.
By the hungarian and galician rebbes, there is a minhag for the rebbe to play -very briefly- with the dreidel on “zos chanukkha”.
The story of the dreidel goes back to (apparently) the times of the Hasmoneans that were learning and when the greeks/Syrians burst into a house, they started playing dreidel to hide theri learning.
And lastly, the original ‘kvitlach’ are really the “quittly” that existed in Austria, Hungary, Galicia and actually only had twelve cards. It is a very good game and lots of fun!(only on chanukkah)
Moderator –
I believe rabbiofberlin was trying to be humorous, but a comment calling one of the gedolei hador of the previous generation (the Chofetz Chaim) a “killjoy” sould have been edited out of the comment.
There is no need to post this message
so halacha l’maisa is kvitlech assur or muttar
Those who play “Kvitlach”on Chanukah will be punished severely in the next world, as many other Aveiros, sins, are inevitably involved whenever these card games take place (gambling, stealing, Nivul Peh, Bitul Torah, Prikus Ol, Lashon Hara, [as well as lack of Tzniyus, Histaklus B’Arayos etc. when there are men and women involved in the same game, Chas V’Shalom] just to name a few).
One who has the capacity to stop these games from taking place and discontinue this sinful practice will be greatly rewarded in the next world (Aruch HaShulchan Siman 670:9. See also Yesod V’Shoresh Ha’Avodah Sha’ar 12: end of Perek 1)
If you have been invited to participate in such a game, it would be best to cancel and let them know that you won’t be attending. Although this may be a difficult decision and one that may cause you embarrassment and “hard feelings”, it is the right decision and one that a G-d fearing Jew must make. The Mishna in Pirkei Avos teaches us that “L’Fum Tzaarah Agrah- the more painful a
decision is to make, the greater the heavenly rewards”bored@work,
Thank you very, very much.
ICOT,
Thank you for a well worded comment as well.
bored at work….as I said in an earlier posting, too many killjoys in our machane. I am glad I am a happy chossid…
There is no difference between mesacheick b’kuviya and kvitlach, both are asmachta and gezel mi’derabannan. I’d rather be a killjoy than a ganav!!!
bored@work-
I saw the vort you quoted re: kvitlech at http://halachafortoday.com/weekinreview.aspx
Based on the actual Orech Hashulchan which states:
(Cut-and-pasted, but confirmed in a sefer that these are his words verbatim)
The tranlation is: “But those who play with cards – their punishment is large, and in our multitude of sins this plague of leprosy is spread in the house of Israel. Woe upon us that this has ocurred in our day, and how many types of sins hinge on this! And he (who) is merciful shall forgive sin(s). And he who is capable of eradicating this – his reward will be very great”
1) While the Orech Hashulchan does not approve of playing cards, there is quite a bit added in “halachafortoday” that is not in that Orech Hashulchan.
2) I don’t know who “halachafortoday” is. It’s possible I just missed it, but without knowing who something is coming from, I would not automatically assume it is correct.
I did not look up Yesod V’Shoresh Ha’Avodah.
notpashut-
Thank you for your kind words.
rabbiofberlin
watch who you are attacking a killjoy. and yes the minhag to play dreidel is brought down by the bnei yisochor [or more commonly known as the bnei yisuschor] and the chasam sofer kept this minhag.playing with money there is no makor.
i saw in shu’t mekadeish yisrael on chanukah
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/9663that you should play with pennies so each time you get is less than perutah or you are vadai gomer da`as with a penny that the other guy is koneh. vcholuwhat bothers me is in the times of the yevonim they played dreidel when they would be killed if they were caught learning, bzman hazeh we all run away from are gmaras to a game of dreidel. We are still fighting the yevonim
RoB,
As ICOT said before “I believe rabbiofberlin was trying to be humorous” however on the .00001% chance that you are being serious I would like to remind you,
The goal is to make Hashem happy through your own happiness.
If however you achieve he opposite you are really serving yourself – not the eibeshter.
OY—- a little levity is no sin! Even the tannoim and amoroim believed in “milse debedichuso”.
To all litvaks- I learned in litvishe yeshivos and particularly in strong mussar yeshivas. SO- I am very familiar with the litvishe/mussar derech.
Unfortunately, it just doesn’t agree with my “neshomo”. Mesillas jeshorim (and Shaarei teshuva and others..) are wonderful seforim. I just cannot be in permanent depression and morosity all the time.
My “neshomo’ wamts joy, singing and optimism. This is why I tend to the chassidische (and shlomo…)derech. I would just as soon tune out if the mussar derech would be the only one.
All of you are welcome to follow your own inclinations. As I said in another posting, I have all the resepct for gedolim of all machanos and the Chofetz Chaim was a giant of past generations.I am not sure that calling anyone a ‘killjoy’ is a lack of respect. It is -of course- a humurous remark but it does touch on some very fundamental issues, namely, what derech should one follow. That may be what should be discussed.
chacham, thank you for pointing out the mekor of playing dreidel on chanukkah.
RoB,
I’m all for a little levity from time to time – just make sure to stay in-bounds.
But RoB, A Chassidishe neshama does not permit one to be a ganav!!!
gabs-
“so halacha l’maisa is kvitlech assur or muttar?”
Many posters here include mekoros, which can be quite helpful.
For one who will look in the Shulchan Orech or Mishna Berura, a mekor listing can provide a shortcut to something that they would do anyway.
For all others who are unsure of a halacha, while learning and discussing svoros are definitely talmud Torah, for an actual psak (or halocha lemaiseh according to a rav without an actual psak), ask your LOR.
PM,
Stop hitting them with chumros.
PM- No one- as far as i know- wants to be a ganav. the discussion about ‘kvitlech’ ,and dreidels too, is whether they could be played on Chanukkah. Yup- “mesachek bekuvia” (which are the dice, BTW) is considered gezel because it is an asmachta and not a real giving by the loser. However, you will have difficulty convincing me that in a game played with dimes and quarters on chanukkah, that the person losing a few dollars does not give them away volultarily. Once this is apparent, it is not an asmachta anymore, but a gift.
The mishnah in Sanhedrin is talking about professional players- as there are many today- and this is why they are posul le-edus. Additionally, if you gamble in large sums, the logic of asmachta makes sense. But if you play with pennies or even quarters, the actual sum is rather small and can be accepted as a gift.
not pashut: Shulchan Aruch says its assur, where is the “chumra”?
RoB: Can you show any source that differentiates between dice for large sums and small? It’s most unfortunate to be a ganav unintentionally.
PM- The difference is very simple. “Asmachta” means that the person does not fully intend to give/lose the money involved and hence,it can be consdtrued as “geneivah” (albeit miderabbonon). However, if the person FULLY intends to give/lose whatever money is involved, then clearly, it is not an “asmachta’ but a full “kynian” and canot be considered ‘geneivah’ under any circumstances. This is elementary, my dear Watson.
RoB: Your description of “asmachta” is very well done, but it doesn’t prove your point. Professional gamblers in the time of Chazal certainly were aware in advance that they took a risk of loosing money, and presumably they willingly forked it over. Still Chazal understood that there is a subconscious lack of intention that renders the “asmachta” a form of geneiva. I ask again, can you bring a source that small sums are different.
I agree. Asmachta describes the subconscious determination to win at gambling. Even in a situation where it is clear that one is fully willing to lose the money asmachta still applies. I have heard that it may be muttar with small amounts, but take that question to your LOR.
Even with large amounts of money what is wrong? if the person is playing obviously he knows that he may lose money.
yros: He knows, but is not truly willing to lose. Azoi zugt chazal.
squeak: please explain what you said.
What I said was that your logic does not fly in the face of the concept of asmachta. Chazal said that the nature of a person who gambles is that he only does so to win. As such, he does not truly give up the money he puts in the pot (in his mind) and therefore taking it is akin to stealing. I and ROB and others have explained asmachta a few times in this thread.
Certainly Chazal knew that gamblers understand the rules of gambling, and that if you lose – you lose. Asmachta means that a gambler is not gomer daas on losing the money – he expects to get it back and more. Of course he doesn’t get it back if he loses, but we consider it halachically as if he still has ownership of the money because he never really gave it up. Thus, you cannot take it.
icot,
I finally found it. It’s the FIRST Biur Halacha in Hilchos Channukah.
PM,
I was being facetious. (I believe that’s spelled wrong)
Don’t worry, I don’t take it personally. But seeing the comments on the thread about chumros, it seems to me that some members don’t know the difference between a psak l’issur and a chumra.
Facetious is correct. I anyone cared about their spelling, they can download ieSpell from http://www.iespell.com. It is a little program that spell checks what you write on the web.
notpashut-
Thank you for looking it up and pointing it out. I probably should have looked in the Biur Halocha while I was looking up the Mishna Berura.
In the Chofetz Chaim’s words:
??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???’: ???? ?????? ????”? ???? ?”? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ??”? ????”? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???”? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??????????? ????? ????? ???”? ?????? ???? ???? ???
Translated:
And they are accustomed to saying songs and praises etc: In the teshuvos of the Maharshal siman 85 that he write that it is fitting that the simcha (joyousness) should be blended and saturated with a Torah-like simcha, and should not be nullified from its establishment. And in our multitude of sins there are men that instead of songs and praises that are fitting to praise H-shem (may he be blessed) upon the miracles that he performed for us, they increase the mockery of card-playing, and the holy seforim ascribe much wickedness to this, and one who watches his neshama (soul) will distance himself from this.
Moderator –
Please fix a couple of errors in my prior posting:
1)??????????? should be ????? ?????? – two words.
2)”that he write” should be “that he write”
3)”upon the miracles” should be “for the miracles”
4)”the mockery of card-playing” should be “card-playing”
1 and 4 are important because they affect the accuracy of the quote and translation of the words of the Chofetz Chaim.
(There is no need to post this correction request.)
Thank you.
Bump 🙂
assur.
Why is that deck different than a standard deck? Or a go fish deck for that matter?
The ???? ?????? brings down the ????? ???? that Notpashut mentioned ealier (actually a long time ago 🙂 ) and says that playing dreidel (and he’s ???? that it’s for money) is different. For each specific game one needs to ask his LOR.
As far as the ???? in ??????? that a few posters keep bringing up, the ???? in that ???? is like ? ????? – that as long as they have another job they are perfectly acceptable for ????? – which means that they are NOT, ??????, considered thieves.
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