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Charliehall — I strongly agree with your overall assertion that the U.S. has treated more Jews fairly then any other country in the world. I am shocked that anyone can say otherwise. The system isn’t perfect — nothing is — but it is head and shoulders above anything else!
However, as far as your discussion of the Pollard case, your comparison to the Rosenbergs is wrong. The Rosenbergs were convicted of “conspiracy to commit espionage during a time of war.” That conviction comes with much harsher penalties than Pollard’s conviction (via the plead deal) of “one count of passing classified information to an ally without the intent to harm the U.S.” (Ally here is used in terms of its application in the espionage act under which he was convicted, not in terms of any military or political significance.) A similarity between the cases does exist in that the Rosenbergs were the first civilians in U.S. history to receive the death penalty for espionage (according to many historians wrongfully so), and Pollard was the first to receive significant jail time for his category of conviction. The next closest sentence, of Steven Lalas, was for 14 years. Lalas was convicted of spying for Greece, including outing numerous CIA agents there and putting their lives at risk. Additionally he violated many of the terms of his plea bargain (unlike Pollard who kept all the terms except for one — the gag order). Nevertheless his total sentence was for 14 year — much less than Pollard has already served. The median sentence for this conviction is 2 to 4 years! Even many convicted of spying for enemy countries (the Soviet Union, Cuba, Iran, East Germany) received less than 10 years. And the notorious Ames, who was convicted of treason and responsible for the DEATH of at least 11 U.S. agents received the same sentence (life in prison), but under much better terms (for example no time in the harsh “K” unit at FCI Marion where Pollard spent 7 years in solitary confinement!).
Pollard was not innocent — but he got far more than he deserved, by any objective legal standard, even taking into consideration his violation of the gag order.
Health. This svara of yours that extends stretching the truth for sholom to parnassa. Is this svara advanced by any rabbonim or poskim or is this your own chiddush. Also, is it permitted to outright lie for sholom? Is taking a government benefit considered parnassa or a form of tzedaka? Based on your lomdus one may lie to a gabbai tzedaka in order so that he should have a “parnassa”? Am I misunderstanding something? Please clarify your position. If this position has the backing of a posek, can you name him?
gavra- although i am a ‘kalta litvack’, i do have to say that there is a slight makom to daven late. the Eshel Avraham (not the pri megadim) in oc”h says that the zman three hours regarding krias shma is not absolute. if the whole kehilla davens at a certain time then that is ok even if it after “three hours”. besides for the aspect that we dont pasken like this E”A, i also dont know its application nowadays- bec in most cities there are very many minyanim well before the zman krias shma. i hope noone will take this post as a psak and be lienent, i am just giving a zechus for those who do.
i hope noone will take this post as a psak and be lienent, i am just giving a zechus for those who do.
Sounds weak, but OK. I can also be “Limed Zechus” for the mixed swimming folk as well, if you would like. R’ Meir was able to give S’varos to Mattir a Sheretz as well.
m in Israel,
The espionage law makes no distinction between civilians and military. The Rosenbergs were civilians, spying for a then-ally. John Walker, his brother Arthur, and Jerry Whitworth have been in prison longer than Pollard; Whitworth’s release date is when he will be 111 years old. Violating one provision of a plea agreement is like violating all of them — and the Pollards violated the gag order multiple times and in a particularly eggregious way. That infuriated the judge — not something that a person who has pleaded guilty should do — and the judge threw the book at them.
The real abuses of the Espionage Act were shortly after it was passed, during the Red Scare during Woodrow Wilson’s administration. Many Jews were caught up in it.
“Why do you think they were treated differently than other spies? Why do you think they executed at least one, perhaps two innocent people?”
The answer is because of right wing insanity such as is seen today in YWN comment forums. I brought up the Rosenbergs to counter the false statement that nobody had ever gotten as severe a sentence as Jonathan Pollard for spying for an ally.
“If they treat Jews differently, even if it’s not all the time, they don’t have the Din of D.M.D.!”
The Rosenbergs were given a penalty prescribed by law. They had a fair trial. Ethel probably could have saved herself with any kind of reasonable defense. As pointed out by another commenter, his brother cut a deal.
“Actually it’s not. People who treat Jews differently are making the Chillul and Bizoyin of Hashem.”
Go find a country where Jews are treated better. You won’t find one. If D.M.D. doesn’t apply in the US, it doesn’t apply anywhere.
‘And I have this ingratitude after the Judge laughed off my discrimination case.’
Frankly, I would be happy if the courts would be tougher on business on religious accomodation cases. But the past generation the courts have been packed with judges who don’t care. Unfortunately the last President who actually tried to fight this tendency was Jimmy Carter. Nixon, Reagan, and both Bushes actively tried to pack the courts with judges who would not second guess business decisions. And despite the lies that people promote here, Clinton and Obama did not try to balance this. And the Corporate Interests who now control the Republican party have fought tooth and nail attempts to get stronger protections written explicitly in the statute.
When we flew to Israel with a stopover in a particular European city, I just couldn’t understand how so many of the frum passengers on our flight were sitting in the Starbucks type place not only drinking coffee, but using the milk that was served.
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Either a possibly misapplied use of Rav Moshe’s heter or members of a certain large Chassidus whose Rebbe told them they can use things they would not use at home when traveling. Both are acting well within halacha as they were taught it.
Those who were not using the milk are not in violation of any halacha whatsoever, except maras ayin as interpreted by Rav Yenteman. I was told very clearly by several of the most reliable sources in kashrus that drinking black coffee with sugar, hot cocoa with no milk (if it exists outside of where I am), and of course tea, is 100% mutar in a “Starbucks-type place.”
gavra- nu…. im looking forward to hearing a heter for mixed swimming, i might make you my rav. 🙂
“Either a possibly misapplied use of Rav Moshe’s heter “
I was in England last week for a conference. I checked out in advance what I could and could not eat. The conference, held out in the country, paid a small fortune to have kosher meals delivered to me from London by a caterer on the LBD list. International kosher travel requires planning ahead! And I should add that I am grateful to the non-Jewish organizers of the conference for making such a sacrifice; I was willing to eat canned tuna and peanut butter for three days but it was nice to have real food.
w.chana -“I completely reject this. Have you asked your Rav?”
No, but you can ask yours. I’m not paskening for anybody.
apushatayid – “Health. This svara of yours that extends stretching the truth for sholom to parnassa. Is this svara advanced by any rabbonim or poskim or is this your own chiddush. Also, is it permitted to outright lie for sholom? Is taking a government benefit considered parnassa or a form of tzedaka? Based on your lomdus one may lie to a gabbai tzedaka in order so that he should have a “parnassa”? Am I misunderstanding something? Please clarify your position. If this position has the backing of a posek, can you name him?”
See above post. My own S’vara. You’re permitted outright to lie.
Tzedaka can be someone’s Parnassa. If you lie because they have certain guidelines that you aren’t in compliance with, it’s not a problem because they have no right to make those guidelines, as opposed to a Gabbai Tzedaka!
Charlie – “The Rosenbergs were given a penalty prescribed by law. They had a fair trial.”
True, they had the legal right to execute them. But how could anyone call the slaughter of two innocents -“a fair trial”?
“Go find a country where Jews are treated better. You won’t find one.”
I have no idea where Jews are treated better -I haven’t lived in every country, but then again, neither have you!
“If D.M.D. doesn’t apply in the US, it doesn’t apply anywhere.”
Well, perhaps it doesn’t!
“Frankly, I would be happy if the courts would be tougher on business on religious accomodation cases…”
This last paragraph is the clincher. Clinton and Obama aren’t liberal enough for you. So when are you going to stop blaming the Republicans for everything wrong in this country? When the Commies make a revolution and this becomes Mother Russia, who are you going to blame then?
And I was talking in my legal case about they didn’t apply the law as written. For some reason everytime I bring this up you jump on your soap box and scream that the law has to be stronger
and this is the fault of the Republicans. Perhaps. But, my beef is that our Court system didn’t apply the law as written equally to Jews as to other groups that have beed discriminated against.
The law states in employment -that the religious beliefs of an individual has to be accommodated unless there is “undue hardship”. The Courts didn’t uphold my rights as an individual to practice my religion. I never have seen them do this with any other religion. And if the Courts decision was based on the written law that the company had a legal loophole of “undue hardship”; I’m still waiting to be informed what that is. Since the Company, nor the Judge put this in any legal paper, I assume there isn’t any. So why wasn’t the law applied to me, like any other American, if it isn’t because the Court system is bias?
Kilobear – “When they opened the KGB archives in the early 90’s, I was living in Moscow. The information in the archives made it very clear that both Rosenbergs, of less than blessed memory, were guilty as charged.”
Were you privy to the real docs, not the ones they just showed to the world? Like were you in the gov. at that time? At that time, a lot of people were claiming that the execution was based on anti-semitism. It now appears that this was true. I personally until yesterday did any research on them, but once this was brought up here, I did. Lots of info is now available immediately due to the net. Now the Judge said that he is giving them the death penalty because of the atomic secrets.
The brother who got ten years, said he lied and involved his sister to protect his wife, but his sister Mrs. Rosenberg was really innocent. The spy from Mother Russia whom Mr. Rosenberg passed info to -said -“none of the info contained any nuclear data”. Yes, he was a spy and maybe his wife helped him, but acc. to the reasoning of the sentencing Judge at that time, they executed two innocent people. Two lower level spies were executed in America because the Court system based a decision on something other than the facts. Why did this happen? Perhaps the groups screaming at that time were correct, it was a case of antisemitism! Even Charlie admits, the Country wasn’t so much into the cold war at that time, so this abuse probably wasn’t due to the Commie witch hunt!
The Rosenbergs were NOT innocent!
Wow. You truly do believe you are permitted to lie to obtain government benefits you otherwise are not entitled to.
How far do you extend your chiddush? Is it permitted to lie so that you can get a good shidduch (if the shver is rich, does the parnassah heter apply)? If I damage your property and I don’t have the funds to pay you back, can I lie to you and deny it under the parnassah heter? If my wife wants be at home, but I want to hang out and eat chulent and sushi with the chevra, can I lie to her and tell her the car broke down to maintain shalom?
charlie hall — It is true that the law does not differentiate between civilians and the military with regards to espionage — obviously the Rosenbergs were sentenced within the general guidelines of the law. However until that point sentencing judges DID differentiate, and greatly, between civilians and the military, and the Rosenberg case was a clear departure from precedent, even if it was not illegal.
But that is not really the point I was making — my point was that the sentence in a case, although up to the discretion of the judge within the legal guidelines, is primarily determined based on what the conviction is. (Someone convicted of manslaughter will not get the same sentence as one convicted of first degree murder, even though they both killed someone!) None of the examples you brought were of people who received a similar conviction as Pollard. As I said in my above post, Pollard’s conviction was for “passing classified information to an ally without the intent to harm the U.S.” There have been over 20 similar convictions in recent history, for countries including Saudi Arabia, China (for some reason considered an ally as far as the espionage act goes!), Great Britain, Liberia, South Korea, South Africa, Greece and many South American countries. No one ever received life in prison, and the next closest sentence is Lalas, as I mentioned above, who received 14 years despite having also broke his plea deal. So your reasoning that his disproportionate sentence is because he broke his plea deal is hard to believe. (And yes, I believe most judges would admit there is a difference between someone who breaks the plea deal by not giving over all of the information they were supposed to give (like Lalas), and someone who breaks a PR part of the deal, but even without that argument the Lalas case is a strong counter point.)
The examples you brought of the Walkers and Whitworth were of people who were convicted of espionage itself, as the Soviet Union between 1968 and 1985 (the years Walker ran his ring) was NOT legally considered an ally (this was the height of the Cold War!) There are many other outside factors that explain why these comparisons are invalid (Walker ran his ring for 18 years, and his plea bargain specifically did not request leniency for himself — he made a deal on behalf of his son, who received a sentence of 25 years of which he served 15. Whitworth did not enter into a plea deal at all), but they are not really necessary, as the contention of Polllard’s supporters that “nobody ever received such a harsh sentence for spying for an ally” is completely accurate. The examples you brought were of individuals convicted of spying for “unfriendly countries”, and therefore irrelevant to the above statement you are trying to disprove. (Although I don’t think any of the examples except the Rosenbergs received the conviction of “in times of war”, which is much more severe. I’m not sure about this particular point however.)
Again — Pollard is obviously guilty, as was Julius Rosenberg, and very possibly Ethel as well. The question is just one of fairness in sentencing, compared to what usually happens.
Also I strongly disagree with Health’s position that these individual cases mean the U.S. system is consistently anti-Semetic. However that doesn’t mean that any individual case is not (Health, your personal case may very well have been, I’m not addressing that). My personal opinion is that the Pollard case in particular is not so much an issue of anti-Semitism as much as a political game with Israel, but that’s a different story!
charliehall – “The Rosenbergs were NOT innocent!”
True, they were spies, but they were Innocent of passing atomic secrets to Russia. Read my post to the Kilobear. The Judge only passed the Judgement of death on them due to the passing of atomic secrets. This is called a miscarriage of Justice!
Name other people (who aren’t Jews) who got killed by the gov. and their case was a miscarriage of Justice!
apashutayid – “Is it permitted to lie so that you can get a good shidduch (if the shver is rich, does the parnassah heter apply)?”
I’m not a Poisek to judge up every case, but I can tell you that people lie in the above case all the time.
“If I damage your property and I don’t have the funds to pay you back, can I lie to you and deny it under the parnassah heter?”
You’re lying to prevent you from paying the guy what you owe him anyway.
“If my wife wants be at home, but I want to hang out and eat chulent and sushi with the chevra, can I lie to her and tell her the car broke down to maintain shalom?”
Again, people do this all the time.
I’m not here to give people Heterim for every case you can think of, I was talking in a specific case. Ask your Rabbi all your Shailas that you posted above. I’m not the CR’s Poisek. Comprende?
miI – “My personal opinion is that the Pollard case in particular is not so much an issue of anti-Semitism as much as a political game with Israel, but that’s a different story!”
Ok, so they are still holding a guy to put pressure on Israel, presumably to get them to give in on the “Peace process”. Do you know of any other person in the whole prison system that they are still holding him because they use the guy for a political game?
I guess the reason he wasn’t even allowed to visit his sick father or go to the funeral was because this helps with their political game. Perhaps you are being blinded by your Negious; I for one have only one answer for the Gov.’s action with regard to J. Pollard and that is that they are Antisemitic!
I am asking you just how far you are willing to extend your chiddush/kula, not a psak.
And if people do in fact lie in the scenarios mentioned, is that another tzad hetter that we can attach to your chiddush so that we can lie with no reservations?
apushatayid – I’m not extending it to anything. If you want to extend it -go ahead. I said what I said with regards to Gov. programs. Stop trying to bait me on other things because you don’t like what I said.
This is a common problem in the Yeshiva World, (not web site), that people like to try and bait you because they disagree with your opinion on something!
I’m not trying to bait you. I am trying to understand just how far you are willing to go.
You took the statement of chazal that one is permitted to “lie” (i dont believe chazal said that, they did not say sheker is permitted, they said one may be mishane) for the sake of shalom and extended it to, one may lie for the sake of parnassah. Then, you stated that dina dimalchusa does not apply to the US government in general and benefits programs in particular, and that one may lie to gain access to programs one would otherwise not qualify for. Somehow you equate tzedaka and government programs with parnassah. Since you have no issues making these leaps, I just wanted to see how far you are willing to leap.
I’m not your Rav and will not tell you what to do. All I can say is Shomer Pisayim Hashem, be careful and dont get caught. I’m not coming to visit you.
apushatayid -“Somehow you equate tzedaka and government programs with parnassah.”
Wrong, taking Gov. programs isn’t Tzedaka, it’s Parnossa.
“they said one may be mishane”
Play on words – that means lie.
“for the sake of shalom and extended it to, one may lie for the sake of parnassah.”
Wrong again, lying for the sake of Parnossa would be under the umbrella of Sholom. You have every right to that money, whether you comply with their guidelines or not!
Health,
“It’s not stealing because they give out the money anyway”
“The only problem would be stealing, but it’s not [stealing] because they are giving it away to those who meet their guidelines”
Do you give out/pay money to those who meet your guidelines? And if i dont agree with your choices am i allowed to steal it from you?
Health,
What about the prohibition of Geneivas Daas? Is that also allowed in certain cases?
2qwerty – Let’s see -What is Geneivas Daas? S/o is making you think something without actually lying. Lying is actually saying something to manipulate their mind. Lying has to be worse than Geneivas Daas, so where you are allowed to lie – you can do Geneivas Daas!
“Wrong, taking Gov. programs isn’t Tzedaka, it’s Parnossa.”
To you, not to the government.
It is a temporary form of assistance until one is able to be self supporting. That is how the government looks at it, even if you do not.
Does halacha equate the taking of tzedaka with earning parnassa? Does halacha require a gabbai tzedaka to give money to someone who comes to collect his daily “paycheck”? (I don’t know the answer)
Health,
I just saw how this thread digressed to discuss stealing from the government. It seems you think it’s okay. Have I misunderstood? I hope you’re kidding here, but if not, please speak to a posek about it, who will straighten you out on this one.
health,
you didn’t answer my first post about stealing.
mods- I am a firm believer that we should be allowed to express our views without censorship. However, the line must be drawn somewhere. It is completely reckless to allow health to express his view that is okay to steal from the government (yes it’s stealing, forget lying, forget ginevas daas, it’s 100% pure ginevah). Either you must close this thread or start censoring it.
We follow Bais Hillel in most instances and even though their decisions are kulos when compared to Bais Shamai, these decisions are considered Din; not kulos. The opposite of a chumra is not necessarily a kula; it is the ikor din.
Depending on the situation, at times Rav Moshe’s p’sak was universal, at times for the USA , at times only for Manhattan which was his location, and at times only for the individual asking the s’haila.
Not going mixed swimming is ikor hadin and NOT a chumra. Going mixed swimming is not a kula but rather a severe violation of halacha.
What’s your point?
Newhere – “I am a firm believer that we should be allowed to express our views without censorship”
You are speaking hypocrisy. One second you say, you don’t believe in censorship and the next second you say I should be censored. If you would have bothered to read all the posts, you would have seen, I based my opinion on Halacha. If you have any Proof why the Halacha isn’t like me -post it! Calling for me to be censored, is your desperation -that since you vehemetly disagree and you have no proof that I’m wrong, the next best thing is to keep me quiet. Why don’t you move to a country that believes in censorship? How about Iran?
2qwerty & apushatayid –
“Do you give out/pay money to those who meet your guidelines? And if i dont agree with your choices am i allowed to steal it from you?”
“To you, not to the government.
It is a temporary form of assistance until one is able to be self supporting. That is how the government looks at it, even if you do not.
Does halacha equate the taking of tzedaka with earning parnassa? Does halacha require a gabbai tzedaka to give money to someone who comes to collect his daily “paycheck”? “
I’ll repeat myself one more time. The gov. doesn’t have the right to make guidelines as opposed to a Gabbai Tzedokoh or anyone else. They only would if they had the Din of D.M.D.! This is the reason also why you don’t have to pay taxes. I don’t recommend holding up Fort Knox, even if that wouldn’t be considered stealing. (Which it might, even acc. to me, but I’m not sure.)
When one uses google, this website can be found easily, any views expressed on this site appear prominatly in google
BS”D
DDD regarding taxes is brought in the Gemorah Bava Kama 113A:
??????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????
Note this was in Persia circa 1800 years ago, where there were specific exceptions (for example, where the members of certain religions had to pay certain taxes and others did not, Jews were allowed to “obscure the truth” in order to get out of those specific taxes). None the less, regular taxes were the responsibility of everyone (Talmidei Chachamim may have been an exception, see first perek Bava Basra).
I wasn’t going to respond, but see that he is both serious and ignorant, looking for excuses to mattir his current behavior, as well as letting his own negius/hatred regarding/because of his specific judicial case block his logic. Ka’as is one the worst middos to have:.
From the Gemorah Nedarim 22A:
??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? (????? ??) ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? (???? ??) ?? ??? ?’ ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????????? ?????? ?? ????? (????? ??) ???? ?’ ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????????
As others said, when your own Rov agrees with you, have him tell us so. Otherwise, you are just talking out of frustration and anger, not Halacha. In the meantime, I wish you a Refuah Shelaima.
P.S. This is not an invitation to have a discussion, just like I would not have a discussion with a crazy missionary to decide that maybe he is correct. This is just a statement of fact. Get your Rov to agree with you (and publish it), and then I will reconsider.
mods- I am a firm believer that we should be allowed to express our views without censorship. ……. Either you must close this thread or start censoring it.
i learned in high school that the first and last sentence of a paragraph should parallel each other. wow
i think gavra (as well as Halachah), deserves the last word here.
- The topic ‘Kula Creep – The Creation and Use of Non-Existent "Kula's"’ is closed to new replies.