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Per gavra_at_work’s request, I start this thread to list the very bad and all too prevalent phenomenon of what he has colloquially termed “Kula Creep”. All too often too many people will take upon themselves an unreal and non-existent “kula” that in reality is not a kula but rather a real breach of halacha.
I now turn the floor over to my dear friend gavra to begin listing some such examples, out of the very many that unfortunately exist, as he promised he would do.
Take it away gavra.
“take upon themselves an unreal and non-existent “kula”
-sounds like an oxymoron-you ever hear s/o take upon himself to eat more pastrami or sleep an extra hour? But I get your point.
Thanks, Joe.
Using Cholov Stam products that are made outside the US.
Davening after Z’man since “Chassidim do it, why can’t I”.
Wearing skirts that cover the knee sometimes, if you pull it down (or worse).
Unmarried girls going to the Mikva (better that way than not, but still bad)
Lying to get benefits (I know, it was on the other list too).
Letzanus of Yidden not like you “Leshaim Shomayim”.
I’ll probably think of more as time goes on.
gaw – Most of what you mentioned aren’t kulahs, they are called “Moirah Heter”.
gavra- Rav Moshe’s mirsas hetter on cholov stam applies to any civilized country with laws similar to the US. I would imagine canada, england, israel, and many other would fall into that list.
gaw – Most of what you mentioned aren’t kulahs, they are called “Moirah Heter”.
Exactly the point, and why they are paralell to Chumras without basis.
Rav Moshe’s mirsas hetter on cholov stam applies to any civilized country with laws similar to the US.
If the laws and checks are researched, compliance is measured, and the Poskim in that country say so, then yes. Otherwise, don’t assume anything.
newhere- They do not. Rav Moshe relied on the USDA and the strong enforcement. It does not exist anywhere else.
newhere- They do not. Rav Moshe relied on the USDA and the strong enforcement. It does not exist anywhere else.
Not sure if this belongs here, but I was sitting in a midtown succah, and heard two teens bentch, but stopped after the bracha of Uvnei and got up to leave. They caught my glance (and puzzled look on my face) and said, “This is d’Oraisa. The rest is d”Rabannan”.
Psak, slam dunk!
“Unmarried girls going to the Mikva (better that way than not, but still bad)”
Not according to the Kitzer Shulchan Aruch, who paskens that girls and boys should all go to the mikveh Erev Yom Kippur starting at age nine.
But overall your point is well taken; it is important it is important to distinguish between the many kulot that have halachic support, and kulot that are made up.
It exists in Canada, with even stricter guidelines than the USDA and the principal machshirim in Canada support it.
RABBAIM you are right. In switzerland it does not apply
As a rov in the USA R’ Moshe was careful to only pasken for the USA. It is left to competant poskim to determine if his rulings can be applied elsewhere.
– Relying on Chalav stam for cheese.
– Using ”certain” eruvirm that the only rav theat holds of it is the Eruv Rav.
RABBAIM-
You sure about that??
WHOA!!!
Did you just compare Cholov Stam (which IS not great, but “yeish al mi lismoch) and leitzanus, to stealing from the government?
And those to borderline tz’nius?
and all of those to an issur d’oraisa?!?!?!?!?
The London Beis Din lists no shortage of products that are not Chalav Yisrael that are permissible to eat. I can choose to rely on them or not, but in what sense does their being meikil on the issue not qualify as a legitimate kula?
Look at what Rebbi1 wrote In Switzerland. no, Germany, no and would you trust them anyway France, no… lets hear form some of the frum crowd in European countries.. What about Australia??? South Africa?? Do you know how many little farmers bring their milk to central companies?? Who is enforcing?? I was told that it is not eve trustworthy in England because people drink treif mmilk and its not a crime to mix. or the penalties are minimal
have a great Shabbos everyone!
“As a rov in the USA R’ Moshe was careful to only pasken for the USA.”
One more example of the greatness of R’Moshe.
I think a better topic would be Chumras that people create.
If your Rav permits something, that is a psak halacha, not a kula. It is an action that is permitted by halacha based on your ravs learned opinion, even if another Rav disagrees. One must be careful not to label others “maikilim” if they follow the opinion of their Rav who permits something others do not. Unfortunately, that happens all to often.
“Who is enforcing?? I was told that it is not eve trustworthy in England “
As already mentioned, the London Beit Din certifies many non-CY products, so I guess they are the ones doing the “enforcing”.
If the London Bais Din supervises we are not relying on government officials to enforce anything. It is a hechsher!
Cholov Stam is allowed in The Netherlands, but only as a second option where Cholov Yisroel is unavailable (ie, outside of Amsterdam).
I’m fairly sure the regulations for this are nowadays set on the EU level, so if it’s ok in The Netherlands, I believe it’s ok in the rest of the EU as well (and I’m pretty sure in Switzerland as well).
And yes, a quick check reveals I’m right about Switzerland: http://www.igb.ch/fileadmin/pdf/Kaschrutlisten/Aktuell/IGB%20Kaschrut-Liste_Stand_Juni%202011.pdf see page 131 (Milch).
Mods: I am posting a link to a kashrus list on the website of a kehilla (the IGB, Jewish Community of Basel). I’d assume that is ok?
Rabbaim. In the US the OU places their symbol on milk. Ask them why and what they are certifying and upon whom they are relying when they allow their symbol to be printed on a carton of milk. The same could be true in London (I have no idea, never been there).
Why has this become a discussion on chalav yisrael/stam?
apushatayid: don’t ask me. But be informed that in Europe, in most places, none or very few products that are kosher have any sort of stamp on them. In a country with a population of (tens of) millions, it doesn’t make sense to put kashrus symbols on products where only a few thousand people keep kashrus. This is the case in The Netherlands, in Germany, in Switzerland, the UK (with a few exceptions), and most other countries. Instead, we have kashrus lists (like the one linked above) in paper and/or PDF formats provided by the certifying authority, and we have to check each product on the list.
In France and Italy, drinking milk of animals other than cows is common. Same with the former Soviet Union, where horse milk is commonly consumed by Tatars and other Muslim tribal people who sell it in open air markets throughout the region.
I think horse milk is the real concern, not useless pig milk.
Stealing from the government is not a kula. NO responsible rov says it is mutar unless you consider the Admou”r meCreedmoor responsible. It is ossur and a chilul Hashem.
It is a minhag that goes back to the times when we were persecuted and singled out for special taxes or sudden business closure by the Czars, Communists, Nazis and Muslims.
Fraud against government agencies has no place in the US, Canada, the UK etc although if Obama ruins the country during any second term (Hashem yishmor!) it may well be that the only way to survive will be by working under the table as is the case in many socialist or overly bureaucratized states including EY.
Dr. Hall: “Going to the Mikva” is a euphemism for what they do afterwards.
Kilo: IIRC there was a big uproar when a “mainstream” Brooklyn well known Rov spoke in Teaneck and said cheating on taxes is Muttar.
Gavra: The Rov never said that and the only uproar was what was manafactured by Torah hating bloggers.
Joe: Since you were there, what did he say?
(P.S. I didn’t think you lived in Teaneck of all places!)
“Ask them why and what they are certifying and upon whom they are relying when they allow their symbol to be printed on a carton of milk. “
All milk sold in the US still requires rabbinic supervision as it contains additives (mostly vitamins). About 15 years ago a dairy in New England added a nutritional supplement from a non-kosher source and its products lost their hechsher.
rabbaim- ‘If the London Bais Din supervises we are not relying on government officials to enforce anything. It is a hechsher!” You’re aware that “cholov stam” milk in the us has a hechsher, correct?
newhere. yes, the milk has a hechsher, but as charliehall pointed out it covers vitamins and other supplements they put into the milk, not the milk itself. they are relying on the governmental controls that all milk being sold as cows milk is in fact cows milk.
not sure when the ou published this
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/cholov_stam_an_update_from_the_farm_and_lab/
Pac-Man/ Joe – Well acc. to what I read here on the CR, that Dina Dmalchusa Dina only applies in a country where they treat e/o equally, he definitely should have said it!
I’ll give one example -J. Pollard -1. Gov. reneging on their plea bargain for no apparent reason. 2. No spy who got caught spying for a friendly country ever got such a harsh sentence in the good ole USA!
I have many examples, including the way I was treated in court.
So unless there is another reason to pay your taxes other than Dina Dmachulsa Dina or that poster is incorrect about treating e/o equally regarding D.M.D., why should you, if you’re not afraid of getting caught? And this would go on lying on Gov. applications also. It’s not stealing because they give out the money anyway, it’s just not following their guidelines which only would be not keeping D.M.D., if D.M.D. applied! This isn’t a Psak Halacha, just looking for opinions.
Health. Leaving aside Dina dimalchusa and when it applies or the pros and cons of paying taxes. You seem to be advancing an argument that it is permissible to lie. What happened to midvar sheker tirchak? Did I misunderstand?
apushatayid- So you’re agreeing with me.
Newhere. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I wasn’t commenting on anything you wrote.
“I’ll give one example -J. Pollard -1. Gov. reneging on their plea bargain for no apparent reason.”
Wrong. There was a very good reason: Pollard and his then-wife reneged on THEIR part of the plea agreement by giving interviews to the media without permission. The judge was furious and threw the book at them.
” 2. No spy who got caught spying for a friendly country ever got such a harsh sentence in the good ole USA!”
Wrong again. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed after being convicted of spying for a then-ally. (And Ethel was probably innocent of the charges.)
“I have many examples, including the way I was treated in court.
So unless there is another reason to pay your taxes other than Dina Dmachulsa Dina or that poster is incorrect about treating e/o equally regarding D.M.D., why should you, if you’re not afraid of getting caught? And this would go on lying on Gov. applications also. It’s not stealing because they give out the money anyway, it’s just not following their guidelines which only would be not keeping D.M.D., if D.M.D. applied! This isn’t a Psak Halacha, just looking for opinions.”
I sat on a federal grand jury last fall and voted to indict someone for lying on an application for government benefits. I did not take into consideration whether that liar and thief was a Jew. There is no extra religious tax here, and both Jews and non-Jews get prosecuted for tax fraud. The United States has treated more Jews fairly than any country in the history of the world. Your ingratitude is a chilul HaShem.
‘Stealing from the government is not a kula. NO responsible rov says it is mutar unless you consider the Admou”r meCreedmoor responsible. It is ossur and a chilul Hashem.’
But we have an incredible ability to listen to our yetzer hara and rationalize all kinds of bad behavior.
apushatayid
Member
newhere. yes, the milk has a hechsher, but as charliehall pointed out it covers vitamins and other supplements they put into the milk, not the milk itself. they are relying on the governmental controls that all milk being sold as cows milk is in fact cows milk.
not sure when the ou published this
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/cholov_stam_an_update_from_the_farm_and_lab/
u having a hard time keeping track of your posts?
No.
apushatayid – “Health. Leaving aside Dina dimalchusa and when it applies or the pros and cons of paying taxes. You seem to be advancing an argument that it is permissible to lie. What happened to midvar sheker tirchak? Did I misunderstand?”
I see no problem in lying. Lying is Mutter for Sholom, for sure it would be Mutter for Parnossa. The only problem would be stealing, but it’s not because they are giving it away to those who meet their guidelines. So the only reason not to take it is because you are breaking their guidelines, but this would fall under Dina Dmalchusa Dina, which you don’t have to keep.
Charlie – You’re so predictable. At least you’re consistent. As a matter of fact, I was going to bring as an added proof what you posted – “Wrong again. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed after being convicted of spying for a then-ally. (And Ethel was probably innocent of the charges.)”
You are just adding fuel to my fire!
Why do you think they were treated differently than other spies? Why do you think they executed at least one, perhaps two innocent people? Perhaps, just perhaps because they were Jews. If they treat Jews differently, even if it’s not all the time, they don’t have the Din of D.M.D.!
“Your ingratitude is a chilul HaShem.”
Actually it’s not. People who treat Jews differently are making the Chillul and Bizoyin of Hashem.
And I have this ingratitude after the Judge laughed off my discrimination case. Which BTW they don’t do with other types whom are discriminated against. I’m still waiting for the Courts to tell me why it is any hardship, let alone “undue hardship”, for the company to have accommodated my religious beliefs. All the company ever proved was that it was a business decision to force all employees to work on Sat. Well, no company would be open on Sat. if it wasn’t a business decision, in other words, they are making money on that day. And forcing all employees to work on that day, is because they figured- workers don’t want to work on weekends. But where in these last few lines, have they proven -if they accommodate Shabbos observers that there will be a hardship, let alone an “undue hardship”, on their business. The law requires proof, not theorizing.
When we flew to Israel with a stopover in a particular European city, I just couldn’t understand how so many of the frum passengers on our flight were sitting in the Starbucks type place not only drinking coffee, but using the milk that was served.
You know, sometimes you feel like asking people to remove their yarmulkes if they’ve got to behave like that in public.
When they opened the KGB archives in the early 90’s, I was living in Moscow. The information in the archives made it very clear that both Rosenbergs, of less than blessed memory, were guilty as charged.
Ethel’s brother was a moiser; he, too, should have been executed but he cut a deal.
Health – “I see no problem in lying. Lying is Mutter for Sholom, for sure it would be Mutter for Parnossa.”
I completely reject this. Have you asked your Rav?
I highly recommend the movie America: Freedom to Fascism. You can Google it.
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