KOSHER-SWITCH

Thank you, DY.

It could theoretically be included in “????? ??????”, as quoted in Kiddushin 33a – As Rashi explains the Gemara:

????? ???? ????? – ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??????

DaasYochid: Can you cook on an electric stove on yom tov? if yes, then the tosafos clearly comes into play, If no, why?

DaasYochid! That is my point- boneh IS MUTTAR ON YOM TOV. no one disagree with that tosefos and that gemoro!

DaasYochid: I did some quick research on this matter and these are teh following salient points: the gemoro (shabbos 95A) says that it is a “melocho” to make cheese on shabbos (“chayiv”) because it is building something- and “boneh’ is a melocho. Tosefos deducts from this that “boneh” would NOT be a melocho that is prohibited on yomtov- because making cheese would be allowed on yom tov and hence so will this “melocho”. Tosefos prohibits,however, building a house because of “uvdo dechol”. Still ,it is clear taht making cheese on yom tov would be muttar!

The Rambam “paskens’ like this gemoro and says making cheese is a ‘melocho d’oraisa”. Interestingly ,neither the Rif, nor the Tur ,nor the Shulchan Aruch mentions this rambam and his psak. Why? Well, courtesy of Artscroll notes, it is pointed out that many Poskim hold that “boneh” is only a melocho when doing it on the ground (like a house), not on keilim and here with cheese it would be like making a kli-hence not a d’oraisa. In short, these are the rishonim on this matter.

Now, on to electricity. I checked the “SHmiras shabbos’. First of all, he clearly allows cooking on an electric burner (sima 3). However, he maintains, following the bulk of acharonim, that making an electric connection is ossur on yom tov- mainly because it is “Nolad’-starting from nothing (same as striking a match). Therefore, he also maintains that it owuld be ossur to increase or decrease an electric burner because , he says, this act either extinguishes or increases THE AMOUN OF ELECTRIC COILS.

I understand his reasoning , although I may say, that the burners I know DO NOT ADD OR EXTINGUISH individual burners- they only increase, or decrease, the ampage throught the same coils.

On to my comment about ‘boneh’ on yom tov. This was in reaction to a commenter who said that it was a mistake to say that electricty is muttar on yom tov. To which I replied that those who are mattir electricity on yom tov (and they were some pretty big Poskim)do not think it is a mistake- even if we accept the chazon ish that it is boneh! because- further to the tosefos (and the rambam), boneh would also be muttar on yom tov.

All of the above gives way to the issur on “Nolad’ on yom tov, which has nothing to do with the melocho.

DY:You are not allowed to turn on, turn off, or adjust an electric stove on Y”T.

Slight correction. One cannot adjust an electric stove on Yom Tov when the burners operate with two coils. However, one is permitted to adjust an electric stove when the burners operate with one coil.

CB, only under very limited circumstances, specifically, that you know that your adjustment will not initiate or stop a flow of electricity. The indicator light doesn’t ordinarily help for this, as it merely indicates if it’s set to maintain the programmed temperature.

See Star K website for details and further explanation.

DaasYochid: It has noting to do with me. Tosafos on daf ninety five says it could be muttor on yom tov,except that this would be uvde dechol.

DaasYochid: If you accept the gemoro and the Rambam that making cheese on shabbos is melocho d’oraisa, then, clearly, tosafos’ reasoning is right and the only reason why you could not build a house (actually fix a house-see tosafos- because building would not be allowed as you could do it erev yom tov) would be because of an extraneosu reason- such as “uvdo dechol”. However, if you hold like some of the other rishonim that “boneh” does not apply to “keilim”, then ,clearly, making cheese on shabbos is not a d’oraisa and hence, we could not deduct anything from it,as far as building (fixing) a house. However, we could still apply it to electric current,as far as an actual melocho goes.

DaasYochid: You re right in pointing out that the Rambam holds that building would be a d’oraisa-unlike the tosofes. However, this may be because- as I see it- the Rambam dos NOT hold “mitoch” on any other melocho, except “hotzaah and havoro”. see mishne 4. Actually, the more I read about this, the more interesting the subject becomes. By the ay, I never said that one can actually build house on yom tov- see tosefos. However, it may have applications as far as electric currents.

DaasYochid: thank you for the link!

great to see that the Avnei Nezer deals with that question! In actuality, it has little bearing on everyday life as tosefos clearly does not allow building or fixing a house on yom tov.

However, it still may have significance for electric currents- even if you hold like the Chazon Ish that it is “boneh”-if you hold like the rishonim that there is no boneh for “keilim” Unless you accept that electric currents are not keilim because they go bsck to the electric generators that may be considered more like houses. But this is a question for another day.

DaasYochid; on the larger picture, yes, I agree with you because-if you read the shmiras shabbos carefully-initiating an electic current is a “maase nolad” – akin to striking a match. although I am not sure whether that makes it a melocho d’oraisa on yom tov. He allows to use an electric stove but not to alter the current. However, this can be only be right if there is more than one coil-as cherrybim said- because if there is only one coil and you change the temperature by increasing the wattage ,why should it be “ossur”?

The question of electric currents was settled about a hundred years ago and ,regardless whether the science was correctly identified, “puk mo amo diber”. My only contribution was to say that ,on yom tov, the matter of electric currents is uniform-even if you believe it is boneh like the chazon ish. Of course, “mavir” and “mevashel ” are obviously allowed on yom tov. I quoted the tosefos to say that boneh,too, could be allowed on yom tov because of “mitoch”.

There may be questions on yom tov like, for example, a dimmer. Why should it be ossur to increase the strength of the light on yom tov? The electric current is already present, you are only increasing the wattage? I never heard a good answer on this. Maybe you can enlighten me. Decreasing the light is more complicated as it involves “kibui” and this is a discussion for another day.

Why is changing the temperature on they burner ok while playing with the volume on a radio is not considered fine? Are you talking about while it isn’t active?

Would it be ok to put in or take out lightbulbs while my timer is off?

He uses the term Mitoch, but his example is for eating. In Beitza 12 Tosafos says that Mitoch is for a small need, not for eating. This is why I take it that here he means it as an extension of the Hetter of Ochel Nefesh, not with all the implications of Mitoch. That said, however, this conclusion was from memory, and I probably wouldn’t have brought it up had I remembered the Lashon here.

What use is the random-factor, if it is a certainty that one pulse will connect? It must be mathematically guaranteed to turn the light on, or else it wouldn’t sell. If so, does it make any difference at all that some pulses won’t go through?

My answer for this question is going to be based more on electronics than the halacha.

It seems to me that the randomness issue is simply a red herring. Computers don’t act randomly they simply follow instructions, you can see this in just about any programming language’s random function if you generate random numbers starting with the same initial seed value. What computers can do is simulate randomness to a user that doesn’t have access to the seed value. Therefore if you write a program to generate a series of random numbers those numbers are predetermined and not truly random. The next logical step is that if the switch’s wait cycle actually ends, it was predetermined to end, just that the mathematical formula to determine if and when is too complex for a mere human to know if and when it would in fact end.

BTW, I did read the patent.

Why do you call eating classic Mitoch? Tosafos in Beitza describes the Mitoch of Beis Hillel for a Tzorech Kol Dehu.

I believe it can be switched repeatedly. It works the same on the first change as all other changes.

HaLeiVi, how is that different than this Tosafos?

?? ?? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????

NDG, the switch is a piece of plastic which, when in the down position, blocks the pulse. No sensor is activated or deactivated.

The randomness is indeed meaningless, since within a short amount of time, the light will certainly go off or on.

Here Tosafos goes out of his way to mention eating. I don’t think we say Mitoch from any possible Hetter, only from common usage.

“What exactly is the problem with doing things Hashem didn’t asser?”

See the Ramban at the beginning of parshas kedoshim for starters.

Regarding Rav Moshes psak of kibui on yom tov. No, it is not a secret, nevertheless his own talmidim have told me (and in fact was part of the psak I was given) that it was in the category of halacha vain morin kein publicly to the masses precisely because he was concerned with zilzul. someone would say “litzorech the food” cavalierly and say “rav moshe permitted it” when in fact he did not.

Most importantly, it really doesnt matter what we do or do not think of this switch. It is what my posek says that matters to me and what your posek says, that matters to you.

HaLeiVi, so how is the mitoch from boneh different than any other? Every mitoch needs some sort of tzorech Y”T.

NDG, the plastic piece prevents the pulse from reaching the sensor. If that’s not a grama (it is, but for the sake of discussion…), why couldn’t it be done multiple times?

Mitoch in Beitza wasn’t for eating. It was for Oneg Yom Tov. It was about carrying a child for any kind of satisfaction. The Torah was Mattir Ochel Nefesh.

Ah, I was misunderstanding your question. I think I had the same question, which, if I understand properly this time, is not necessarily different than asking how the switch turns the light off. I believe the video only showed how it turns the light on.

I guess the system is programmed to recognize that the light is on, and detect whether there are any successful receptions of the pulse within a certain period of time, and if not (which would occur if the plastic was blocking the pulse), to turn the light off.

This is just a guess.

Tosafos adds that because he can find no other way for a house to affect food or eating. The eating part is no doubt added in. He could have just as well said ??? ???? ??? ???? without the eating part. And it’s not like Mitoch has to translate back to food, since we find in Beitza 12 that it applies to Tiyul and for the sake of a Mitzvah.

I guess I don’t have a rock solid case but not do I think we start building ????s from any possibility of Hetter. The ???? by ????? is not was you think of when you learn of ???? nor when you think of food preparation. It is a specific crossing point that between ???? and ???? ???. It would be more ????? to Assur cheese making — since ???? is not a food ????? — than it is to build a Hetter out of an exception.

@nishtdayngesheft: When you move “the plastic in front of the sensor” the metzios is that the switch will always be able to intitiate the opposite event (i.e. vs. unblocking) because not only is “the system … programmed to recognize that the light is on” as @DaasYochid guesses, but in fact the attempt to send/receive a pulse via a pair of transmitter/receiver devices inside the switch is always essentially an instantaneous programmed event sequence.

Thus immediately after initiating such an event (“Attempt a Transmission” in the loshon of patent US7872576) the [switch] system is programmed to infer and record (i.e. into processor memory) the position of the blocker. As @RebbeYid pointed out [last week] this is as if the “single computer controlling everything says, I’m going to shine a light into my own eye, and if this human puts something in the way, I won’t turn on his light…”.

All of the random delays described in the patent, have no effect on the metzios of an individual Transmission event. Instead, the kinds of randomness they introduce include:

[A] How long to wait (i.e. from time warning light turns green) to initiate a Transmission event.

How long to delay after the Transmission event, to decide if the results of that event indicate the switch should be changed.

[C] Pseudo-randomly decide if an indicated switch change event (e.g. turn on/off externally controlled light) should actually take effect now, or if to instead re-start a new cycle (i.e. [A] wait/transmit/etc.)

So while at the macro level the change in the external circuit (i.e. lights on/off) may theoretically be delayed for a very long time (i.e. by random cycle of A/B/C happening to occur numerous times) it would seem IMHO that the changes happening within the switch at the micro level are of at least equal concern, and need to be dealt with in any complete analysis of why the entire mechanism might (or not) be muttar lechatchilah.

HaLeiVi, how do we determine a melocho’s natural purpose if not av/toldah?