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david1999:
Actually, you are incorrect.
The type of barrier is irrelevant to this discussion.
When you say the list has been superseded, do you mean we found new rishonim?
When you say we paskin like the meikilim, that is correct. But, it is still a kula. Many poskim will tell you it is better to not rely on it if you don’t have to.
Guys:
Can’t we push this into the Halacha thread I created instead of discussing the Halacha here?
I believe David is talking about Halachic Mechitzos that exist in some cities, like rivers, than can be used for an Eruv.
My understanding is that there are areas in brooklyn near Coney Island that use this concept.
Oomis,
It was suggested that I was too harsh on you so I would like to address you more directly. First of all, I don’t mean in any way to hurt anyone’s feelings, so if I did, I sincerely apologize.
I would like to explain my position again so that, hopefully we can achieve mutual understanding. I will do so in a separate post (because I’m not merely addressing one individual, rather, anyone who cares to read one person’s opinion on this matter).
When different people, or “groups” practice halacha differently (I’m referring to within the legitimate boundaries of halacha), there can be negative feelings both ways. The ones who are more stringent have a nisayon to consider themselves superior to the ones who are less stringent. It’s a difficult nisayon; the reason someone chooses to be more machmir is because he feels it is better (and the poskim often use the term “Tavo Alav Brachah” on observance of a more stringent opinion). Some pass this nisayon, and some fail. Often one matures and develops as a person, and is able to improve is this crucial area of ahavas Yisroel. Hence, a common observation made is that a child who has adopted stringencies on (her)himself does not treat his parents, or others, with proper respect in this area.
On the other hand, those who keep halacha in a more lenient fashion have a nisayon to assume that anyone who keeps “stringencies’ is definitely looking down at them. An additional nisayon is to completely deny that there is anything better about following an approach which is, actually, inherently better, as discussed in the poskim (even if not obligatory).
What should someone use to determine whether or not to practice a particular halacha in a more stringent or more lenient manner? Ultimately, I hope, we can all agree, whichever way is better for one’s avodas Hashem. There are numerous variables which can affect this determination, including, but not limited to, the degree of difficulty in being more stringent (which can itself be determined by many factors) and the halachic importance of that particular stringecy/leniency. This also has many aspects to it; the stringency of the actual halacha (for example a potential aveira whose violation carries a more severe punishment), and the halachic process from which the final psak is derived. This itself includes many factors, such as the greatness and halachic status of the posek/poskim whose opinion is being discussed, and the circumstances under which the psak was issued.
It is to this last point which my comments throughout this thread, regarding chumras and kulas, have been directed.
I believe that one needs to take this into consideration when deciding whether or not to insist on only purchasing or consuming yoshon products. (S)he must also consider many other factors, as well.
@ Daas. Why not? why do you need hersheys twillzers any more than someone else needs a subway grilled chicken sub? why do you have no hashkafic issue with sticking a chassidishe hashgacha onto a package of hersheys candy and not a subway restaurant? certainly it is more cost effective to utilize a process that also conforms to a standard of hechsher that you want and is why the heimishe companies dont start their own plant to make twizzlers. the same logic is applied to a franchise (bulk buying, marketing funds made available, low cost startup loans etc). the food is unquestionably kosher (in our discussion) at the subway restaurant. what is the hashkafic issue? please elaborate? when you do, please explain why twizzlers candy, mike and ikes candies, malt o meal cereals, and the myriad other “sticker” products are different.
TheLargeWhiteUrsineReturns,
Wait a minute? An eruv lets you carry in the subway on Shabbos – or the MTA now offers kosher subway cars? Ich khap nisht…
While you were away,[:)]the thread went off on a tangent (as is common here in the coffee room).
rabbiofberlin,
(If I understand your point correctly) if you’re right, then in every ?????? in ?”?, we should pasken ?????. And in every ?????? in the ???????, we should pasken ?????.
We don’t. “
L’kula, is the minimum standard of halachic chiuyv. it IS the halacha that Hashem gave us. He also gave rabbonim the power to pasken, and they often pasken far more than is required by the perfect halacha that we were already given. we make a choice to be more strict, or follow the given halacha. Kula is not a four-letter word (except as I spelled it). And the people who look at it almost derisively, err seriously. following the kula is NOT the same precise thing as saying someone is more mekeil, because being mekeil sometimes involves letting something “slide” to a certain extent (like when a rov paskens that something is “kosher” b’dieved, but really it should not be used). A kula means that the item was never a chashash in its kashrus. Just some people hold more strictly for themselves.
apushatayid,
These are the posts in which I addressed the hashkafah issues (besides the ones in which I addressed you). I have nothing more to add, other than to reiterate that it’s a subtle issue (and I don’t think it’s even close to being the most important problem facing Klal Yisroel), I understand that not everyone will agree with it or even understand it, and that I don’t hold anything against anybody who disagrees with me and/or eats in Subway.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway#post-203821
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/4#post-206479
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/4#post-206501
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/4#post-206532
Oomis,
L’kula, is the minimum standard of halachic chiuyv. it IS the halacha that Hashem gave us. He also gave rabbonim the power to pasken, and they often pasken far more than is required by the perfect halacha that we were already given. we make a choice to be more strict, or follow the given halacha. Kula is not a four-letter word (except as I spelled it). And the people who look at it almost derisively, err seriously. following the kula is NOT the same precise thing as saying someone is more mekeil, because being mekeil sometimes involves letting something “slide” to a certain extent (like when a rov paskens that something is “kosher” b’dieved, but really it should not be used). A kula means that the item was never a chashash in its kashrus. Just some people hold more strictly for themselves.
In my earlier post, I expressed (albeit in a long-winded way) why I (respectfully) disagree with you.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/5?replies=209#post-207086
L’kula, is the minimum standard of halachic chiuyv. it IS the halacha that Hashem gave us. He also gave rabbonim the power to pasken, and they often pasken far more than is required by the perfect halacha that we were already given. we make a choice to be more strict, or follow the given halacha.
I source, please? I do not believe this is true.
(IIRC) We have a system of P’sak. B’shaas H’Dichak, one can “rely” on a kula (a shitta that is not paskened by) due to it being better to the alternative (such as hefsed meruba, for example). That is not the Halacha that should be followed in the normal case.
alright I’m going to Subway, what do you guys want me to pick up for you?
A metro card
alright I’m going to Subway, what do you guys want me to pick up for you?
Black Forest Ham sub, please.
Someone once showed me the menu from the now defunct Brooklyn Subway, and that was actually on the (obviously misprinted) menu! Some people had a good time and calling the store and asking about it.
IIRC) We have a system of P’sak. B’shaas H’Dichak, one can “rely” on a kula (a shitta that is not paskened by) due to it being better to the alternative (such as hefsed meruba, for example). That is not the Halacha that should be followed in the normal case. “
Ok. But Shaas ha’dchak is NOT a kula, it is about finding a LOOPHOLE that just squeaks by, in the event of an emergency. And one could argue, that that is a whole other set of halachos that come under the “In Case Of Emergency” header. Meaning: This and this is the halacha, but ICOE this OTHER thing is the halacha that may be followed if needed (but ONLY because of the emergency involved). Emergencies i.e., pikuach nefesh on Shabbos, often abrogate certain halachos that must ordinarily be followed to the T.
Daas Yochid…thats pretty funny…must of been under a very leniant hecksher 🙂
Ok. But Shaas ha’dchak is NOT a kula, it is about finding a LOOPHOLE that just squeaks by, in the event of an emergency. And one could argue, that that is a whole other set of halachos that come under the “In Case Of Emergency” header. Meaning: This and this is the halacha, but ICOE this OTHER thing is the halacha that may be followed if needed (but ONLY because of the emergency involved). Emergencies i.e., pikuach nefesh on Shabbos, often abrogate certain halachos that must ordinarily be followed to the T.
You are mixing up two things. Pikuach nefesh takes precedence over all (but three) prohibitions, even if they are certainly prohibited. Shaas had’chak only allows us to use a lenient approach if there is a reasonable way of understanding the halacha that way.
Daas Yochid…thats pretty funny…must of been under a very leniant hecksher 🙂
Yes, but we knew that already from our previous discussions. 🙂
(Folks, don’t jump all over me, I’m kidding.)
The type of barrier is irrelevant to this discussion.
When you say the list has been superseded, do you mean we found new rishonim?
The Mishnah Berurah was only following the Mishkenos Yaakov and we know today that the overwhelming majority of Rishonim maintain that shishim ribo is a criterion of a reshus harabbim (see http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2009/06/reprinting-of-berlin-edition-of-behag.html).
david:
I see, so you are talking about an eruv that uses enough mechitzos that it is considered not a rshus harabim. Hardly the case in most cities.
Also, I am unfamiliar with your reference to knowing about more rishonim now, but;
A. I heard this from a well regarded NY posek.
B. We generally don’t rely as much on rishonim which were newly discovered and were not known to the acharonim.
C. Your link does not work.
D. Your bickering about “kulas” is simply semantics.
Shaas Had’chak translates to mean emergency. What you are talking about, I believe, is B’dieved, which is something else. L’chatchilah and b’dieved are opposite ends of the spectrum. Sh”HD is when there IS an emergency involved. If that is incorrect, then I want a refund from the yeshivos I attended here, and from my Seminary in E”Y.
Shaas Had’chak translates to mean emergency. What you are talking about, I believe, is B’dieved, which is something else. L’chatchilah and b’dieved are opposite ends of the spectrum. Sh”HD is when there IS an emergency involved. If that is incorrect, then I want a refund from the yeshivos I attended here, and from my Seminary in E”Y.
If tuition was, then, even close to what it is now, you’ll be rich 😉
The “emergency” of pikuach nefesh is in a totally separate category of “emergency” than the type referred to as “shaas had’chak”. Shaas had’chak, for example, would be an elderly or infirm person who has trouble digesting matzo, so he would be allowed to eat egg matzo on Pesach, even according to Ashkenazic tradition. In a case of pikuach nefesh, one could even eat chometz if necessary.
Technically, l’chatchila means before the fact, and “b’dieved” means after the fact. An example: “l’chatchila”, one is not allowed to cook meat in a dairy pot, even if it has not been used in 24 hours. B’dieved, if it was cooked, the food is permissible (because the absorbed flavors in the pot have become “pogum” (putrid).
In common vernacular, the word “b’dieved” is substituted for “shaas had’chak”, so might hear someone say that the elderly or infirm person may “b’dieved” eat egg matzo.
Of course, most poskim do not know eruvin, but you do.
All I see is blah blah blah. If you want to use an eruv, go ahead. I also use them. But there is no reason to go berserk over people who do not. There are legitimate reasons to not use them.
Getting back to the Subway restaurant discussion, shortly after the kosher Subway in Baltimore first opened, we picked up some subs to bring home with us. Once we left the restaurant, drove home, and got out of the van, I began to feel very uncomfortable holding the wrapped subs, because the packaging was identical to every other (non-kosher) Subway’s packaging, and the kosher version was probably not yet well known in our community. So while I don’t think the concept of a kosher Subway is wrong, especially if eating inside the restaurant, I can definitely see the maris ayin point. I think the whole problem could be fixed by a prominent sticker on the wrapping paper or the bag identifying the kashrus of the sandwich.
popa_bar_abba –
B. As long as the newly found Rishonim do no overturn established halachah we do rely on them. Consequentially, since these Rishonim are only buttressing the established halachah they can be relied on.
C. http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2009/06/reprinting-of-berlin-edition-of-behag.html
popa_bar_abba –
There is no reason not to use a mechitzah eruv.
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